My Problem With Chargen

[DrLoveMonkey]

And, of course, players don't want to be doing "will probably be fine" against heavy hitting non-Exalted stat blocks with their one major defensive Ability. They want to have something to make sure they're not dragging the rest of the players down when super-serious fight breaks out. Dex 2/Dodge 3 is fine against most things in Creation, but most games are going to end up dealing with stuff that will no be impressed by that.

But then why are most things in Creation getting statblocks? Why do we have storm mothers and flickerfeathers and cockatrice and walkure? We have one directional censor, and one directional war god. Why don't we have them for all four or five directions and just forget about all the Essence 1-5 spirits that nobody is supposed to have a fun time battling anyway.

It's not even like you're shit out of luck fighting things like Octavian unless everyone is a fully 5/5/5 twinked out Dawn. Here's a fight I ran with four PCs with 3s in all physical attributes and 3 melee, no specialty. They all had 5 combat related charms, and there was also a Dawn using Steel Devil, arguably the worst MA in the game. The fight was effectively over by the bottom of round 2, and it wasn't even close.

Now, obviously, Octavian isn't just some run of the mill enemy. He's the Living Tower, the Quarter Prince of Hell, he's likely the most brutally directly powerful second circle demon, and he's the overlord of the largest empire in Malfeas. Which means I think for one he shouldn't be such a totally one sided fight, and for another shouldn't be fighting anyone alone. So give him some backup...but his backup isn't other Octavians, it's things that have 8-9 attack dice and 4 parry, and 8 soak.

I'm not talking about Essence though. The first Dodge 5 Charm is at Essence 1. Of the Dodge 4 Charms, two are Essence 1, and three are Essence 2. Even if our Dodge character here never plans on taking any Dodge Charm Essence 3+, they need Dodge 5 for a lot of those Charms.

My apologies, I mistyped, I meant just the charms further down the tree.

How do you convince someone not to drop 2 BP for Dodge 5 at char-gen instead of 12 XP during play, if Dodge is going to be their main "don't die" Charm source?

Well basically you can't. Which is why I think the chargen rules are a bit broken. It should either be impossible or really really hard to do. You stop the Twilight from taking Protection of Celestial Bliss off chargen by telling the Twilight that he can't take Essence 5 melee charms until he's Essence 5.

This is also not a good solution, but something like xp pools for different areas. It wouldn't work so well with just flat xp where you can buy up whatever you want, but if you had like, your ability xp to spend on chargen abilities with something like:

ability 1: 3 total xp cost
ability 2: 7 total xp cost
ability 3: 13 total xp cost
ability 4: 21 total xp cost
ability 5: 31 total xp cost

Then you have something more like a solution. Your epic twilight sorcerer-savant has 5 in Lore and Occult? Okay that's 62 of your 100xp already. You can spend 31 of your remaining 38 to get melee 5 too if you want, but you'll only be able to get another two ability dots at 1 before you run out. You'll basically have nothing but lore, occult and melee.

I mean, that way you DO still get to play a ultimate fighter ultimate wizard combo. You can be mega badass Doctor Strange who can also straight up beat the shit out of Captain America in a fight, but you need to cripple yourself in basically all other areas to do so. It's a tradeoff worth considering at least.

Also if it wasn't clear I pulled those numbers out of my ass, I'm not suggesting those be the actual values.

[Morty]

This is because I think the Exalted fandom is too split on what it actually wants, so mixed messages are everywhere. Some people want a gritty game, where five elite bodyguards are each individual opponents that are supposed to make a Dawn sweat. Others want full blown Xianxia or Gurren Lagann where you parry the moon being thrown at you. I find myself on the side of mortals being virtually insignificant compared to the chosen, in that they have no prayer in hell and they’re there for narrative tension largely first and foremost. I think Godbound absolutely nailed the point where mortals are supposed to be on the power scale, in where a legendary hero type whose legends are known throughout the land are basically a starting enemy for new Godbound characters. Not only that, but the game isn’t afraid to give them some minor powers in order to make them more interesting than a cardboard cutout.

While there is certainly a major case of conflicting expectations, Exalted 3E was kind of billed as getting rid of the old editions' "mortals don't matter" atmosphere. Or downplaying it, at least. The fact that it didn't do it is a disappointment.

[Sandact6]

I'm not really sure what you mean by this. The way the antagonist chapter, and also difficulty levels, are set up is with a nice continuous feeling world with lots of really fun, interesting and unique foes to challenge players. Why would I want to intentionally get away from that? There's a really good functioning game there, I just can't get to it! I also see no evidence anywhere, except certain parts right at the tail end of 2e, that suggests Exalted was ever even supposed to be as crazy-gonzo over the top insane as that. At least until like Essence 5 or what have you.

I mean that beginning Exalted can crush most things in the antagonist chapter like grapes with there only being a handful of exceptions. I was saying that if you want to provide even a modicum of challenge to the players, then you need to abandon what the stats mean once you get into somewhere like Essence 3 or late Essence 2. Is it supposed to be rare for enemies to have 10 base in a pool? Yes, but I apply that for mortal standards. If I meet a magical being then I’m probably running off the assumption they have a 10 base pool before charms are added on top of that.

I don’t consider this a bad thing. I think powerful people attract other powerful people, not just in Exalted but virtually any setting. The moment you become a bigger fish, the other bigger fish take notice.

I mean damn, the 1e corebook says this on the second sidebar of the whole game, bold in areas for emphasis:

"Yet, they are hunted creatures. Regarded as akin to demon princes in many regions the reborn Solars must live like shadows. Cosmic beings, they must work their plans among men subtly, and walk unseen if they are able. The Wyld Hunt of the Dragon-Blooded is hardly their only fear. They might be stoned or ridden down - no matter how mighty the hero, enough men with bows will eventually wear him down. Also, countless are the snares of those who would involve the newly reborn Solars in their schemes. From the Gold Faction's training of Sidereals to oppose the Realm, and the Deathlords, to the political schemes of the Great Houses and spirit courts, there are countless powers and interests who would gladly use the Solars as their agents and puppets. Young Solar Exalted who wish to prosper must carefully balance the amount of patronage they recieve with the magnitude of the obligations they develop in return for those who tutor them in their infancy.


Thus goes the existence of the Solar Exalted - to wield the power of the Sun but to do so with the greatest economy possible, showing their true might only when the need is great. Traveling the roads as mendicants, pilgrims and fugitives, they tread lightly, and fight when they have no choice, or when their consciences compel them to. Some have crowned themselves kings and queens, but so far their reigns have been brief and ended by the knives of the Wyld Hunt, or by some regional power fearful of competition. Those Solars who wish to survive the maturity of their power must play a game of high and low - living as vagabonds, bandits and troubadours while they master their great power and learn the secrets of their Exalted state."

A powerful guild factor is a powerful regional competitor, and likely has many men with bows in his employ. He's somebody you should at least consider the opinions of, according to that sidebar anyway.

I don’t disagree with that, but if you’re sending mortals then they’re going to do diddly dick against a semi-established exalt or some type of combat exalt. You’re going to be throwing them into a meat grinder. This is like sending Earth’s army to deal with Superman, which shown in Injustice is not a far competition if you don’t have Batman on your side. Batman may be a mortal, but in this context Batman would have to be an Exalt or some other powerful supernatural entity. I literally don’t see any other way they’re going to compete with an Exalt. To paraphase Uncle from Jackie Chan Adventures, “Magic must defeat magic”. If those armies have some sort of supernatural backing, then they may have a chance in hell. If you're an established Merchant Prince then I wouldn't bat an eyelash at them calling in some favors to handle such a thing.

The only exception I can see to this is if they catch the Exalt very early. But if they blow their chance after that then they’d need to be calling in some supernatural favors or a Wyld Hunt.

Now, sure, there are definitely people out there who think Exalted is supposed to be Gurren Lagaan taken up to 11, I get that. I also kind of get why, because the way the mechanics worked out and the way some stuff in late 2e especially was written, and also how Exalted is pitched to so many people. I personally don't want that though, and largely in 3e, apart from the way you can make characters, you don't get that.

Another Example, Monica, a recent dev mentioned that Exalted is about the consequences of success. Okay...but then her example of first and most epic Exalted memory is the PCs in a giant stalagmite with Jadeborn shooting out floors one by one with a lightning ballista every 15 minutes real time. I love that, and I think Monica is great too, but that's not the epic gonzo game where you only battle titans. I don't even think it represents 2e very well. In any of my 2e games that would just be taken care of by PDing that ballista and going to go bully the jadeborn, but I WANT the game to be able to have PCs sitting in a stalagmite wondering how to avoid getting blown up.

It’s fine if you don’t want that, as I said I think it’s best if the game picks one of the two and runs with it, as right now there’s a middle ground of sort that’s just pissing both sides off.

Also I think you’re erroneous in thinking that Gurren Lagann is just brainless power. The entire series was about finding an enemy that forced them to think in different ways. Because it’s a hell of a lot more interesting than gritting your teeth, going Super Sayian Blue and vaporizing the target ala Dragonball. Just because a scale is increased to 11 doesn’t mean intelligence is tossed out with it.

I also get that there's also people out there who go "Well I have 14 dots left over, but my bookworm is already pushing it with 2 melee, they're not a professional soldier! I'm just gonna pump up some of my lesser used skills to 1 dot, and maybe my Sail and Ride to 2!" Okay, that's totally fine, the game works for you! There's no brakes for the people who don't do that though. Still that's okay, or it could be okay, if the printed system/setting/antagonists didn't just fall apart when that happens. Supposedly that's why the rules are even there right? Like the reason you can't put all 28 ability dots into melee at chargen is because there's a rule saying you can't do that because it would break the game, right?

No it won’t break the game, but if your game has the Invincible Sword Princess then you’re in for a bad time. I’ve said to others many times that a core dicepool difference of four or more in pool means those two people don’t even play on the same tier. It’s just the math of the system, and there’s no way around this. If a player wants to make a character like that it’s fine, but I’m going to have a talk with them along the lines “Yo the things that are going to remotely challenge Sword Princess in any remote capacity are likely going to crubstomp you. If you’re cool with that then fine, but if not you may want to bump up your Melee or Dexterity.”

It's not even totally impossible to do, if you stack on enough penalties, with a doom clock to prevent people waiting around for mote regen, and use enough of the most highly tuned enemies and extreme non-combat situations, you can make it okay, but that doesn't stop so many of the antagonists being useless, and it's nearly impossible to tune it up from that point.

Yes some of the most intense scenes I’ve had were players limiting themselves or running on limited resources. Often time however it has let to a lot of frustration leading to players not only being limited from accessing their offense of defensive charms, but rather the motepool serving as a “you can be cool for this long” meter. I will say it works, but when it goes the other way it skips being bad for the players and instead becomes terrible boring slog. A lot of storytellers allow mote regen between combats, and quite frankly I don’t blame them.

If we wanted to change the chargen rules what if it was like this

1) Less attributes, not sure how many less
2) No ability can be raised above 2-3 unless your Essence equals that value or more.

That's a bad solution, it stops mortals from ever getting 2-3 to 5 dots, it stops some builds that aren't game breaking but could still be fun, and I'm sure there's several other problems, but I don't think the problem is ultimately unfixable.

I reject this entirely because I think you’re putting a band-aid on a gaping wound. An Exalt’s real measure of power usually isn’t the attribute or ability pool, but rather the charms they wield and how they’re applied. There’s a world of difference between someone who has INT+OCC of 10 and another who has the same thing but with charms.

As dismissive as this looks to the Guild Factor’s ability to be a threat, that Solar has probably put in way more effort into making this threat look pathetic than they would’ve done for direct violence from an enemy Exalt. Which is probably just clapping their hands and having one or more 2nd or 3rd circle bodyguards appear.

Na. If anything this is dismissive. You don’t warrant the Exalt’s own personal attention, instead sending a summoned lacky to deal with you (Who is more than capable of taking the task on themselves. Literally the only way a Guild Factor can survive an encounter with potent supernatural beings like this is if they call in favors from other supernaturals. Even Masters of Jade mentions this.

[Sandact6]

While there is certainly a major case of conflicting expectations, Exalted 3E was kind of billed as getting rid of the old editions' "mortals don't matter" atmosphere. Or downplaying it, at least. The fact that it didn't do it is a disappointment.

Never will happen with the current system. That's because mortals have nothing interesting backing them up mechanically, only narrative weight. I shit on WoD all the time, but the fact there are genuinely useful things for mortals to get in that means they're not completely worthless. In fact the game is written ground up to make these work even for Supernaturals, which may not be a total waste of time for them to get such things as well.

The fact that Exalted get charms and mortals get nothing? They're don't have a prayer in hell.

Don't say sorcery either. It's overhyped for mortals. It gives some oomph, but so long as your exalt has a non-zero focus in combat then they're going to boot the sorcerer in the balls. They can do some interesting things if they stack their deck, but if an Exalt also has some focus in sorcery and combat? They just shoot you and take the deck. Yea they could have some big nasty monster under their control, but that loops into calling into supernatural favors.

This is why I don't mind if Exalted went the Xianxia route and said mundane mortals can't even compete with Exalts, not without significant supernatural backup. Because outside of narrow exceptions (Such as the super heroic mortal mentioned in the godbound sample), that's already the case.

[Grod_the_giant]

I've run mortal games in Ex3; you might not get charms but there's still a ton of depth in terms of combat and subsystems. Arguably MORE depth, since you can't just blow past everything with a big Excellency. And Attributes + Abilities + Specialties + Merits offers plenty of ground for character customization.

I mean, I'd probably write more Merits if running a mortal game, especially supernatural stuff like The Burning Name, but in a lot of ways I kind of liked the game better when the players can't throw twenty dice at everything. (Other supernatural stuff is fine, it's just that huge die pools are BORING power. I should probably just switch to Lunars or Dragonblooded)

[Heavy Arms]

But then why are most things in Creation getting statblocks?

What does this have to do with my point?

My apologies, I mistyped, I meant just the charms further down the tree.

Even so, "further" isn't exactly far. Leaping Dodge Method is as further down the tree as Shadow Dancer Method. The difference is that Leaping Dodge is all Dodge 3 Charms, while Shadow Dancer Method is a steady increase from Dodge 3 to Dodge 5.

Well basically you can't.

I would argue that if you could get a good enough suite of Charms in the 1-3 dot Ability rating, it would make this a lot easier.

As has been noted, Charms are the real measure of power in the game. If Attribute 3/Ability 3 gets you access to enough Charms that anything that isn't a primary focus of your character can be easily covered for Exalted level conflicts even if there's still cool stuff if you go higher, then you can decrease the stat/dice bloat in the game, and reduce starting dots without making it feel like you're screwing players out of stuff that they can current start with.

There are, of course, other issues. Investment in combat is lopsided such that you can be good with a relatively small investment, but being the best takes a huge investment. Meanwhile almost every other part of the system either has a fairly small investment towards mastery, or at least a much more even progression. There's a good, if telling, reason so much of this focuses on how you can grab Melee for a relatively small investment and be very good at combat, while your concept is actually mostly focused on something else. If we were compared Exalted level Daredevil vs. Dr. Strange we really wouldn't be seeing the same sort of disconnect.

[Sandact6]

I've run mortal games in Ex3; you might not get charms but there's still a ton of depth in terms of combat and subsystems. Arguably MORE depth, since you can't just blow past everything with a big Excellency. And Attributes + Abilities + Specialties + Merits offers plenty of ground for character customization.

I mean, I'd probably write more Merits if running a mortal game, especially supernatural stuff like The Burning Name, but in a lot of ways I kind of liked the game better when the players can't throw twenty dice at everything. (Other supernatural stuff is fine, it's just that huge die pools are BORING power. I should probably just switch to Lunars or Dragonblooded)

I'm not saying you can't run mortal games, but the core system in no way makes accommodations for them. Mortals have an absolute draught of things they can do. Compare this to WoD, it's night and day. Hell, I'd say using WoD (Or ExWoD) to run Exalted mortal games would be infinitely superior, as you have far more options at your disposal at any given time. You mention throwing tons of excellency dice is an issue, and difficulty in WoD is even more important, but often times you can stack on so many situational modifiers if you're prepared that you're rewarded for being batman. It's a good feeling.

Hell, even in Ex2 mortals had more options, as at least I could use TMA to learn martial arts (and not just pay a feat tax to use an ability that does absolutely nothing compared to the others without charms). Hell, Champion Fighters in DnD 5e can do more than mortals ever could.

[DrLoveMonkey]

I don’t consider this a bad thing. I think powerful people attract other powerful people, not just in Exalted but virtually any setting. The moment you become a bigger fish, the other bigger fish take notice.

So why print all the useless antagonists? Why do I have a folder full of antagonists with pools less than 10 dice? They have cool abilities, they have really awesome concepts, totally useless. Of course that is the way it works now, but I don't think it's that way it's supposed to work.

It’s fine if you don’t want that, as I said I think it’s best if the game picks one of the two and runs with it, as right now there’s a middle ground of sort that’s just pissing both sides off.

The thing is, I think that 3e basically DID pick a side. It's not even just apparent from the majority of the books, the developers stated that a design goal of theirs was to make it that way. They just fucked up in the chargen aspect, and I think it can and should be fixed.

No it won’t break the game

Well it breaks the game like a base 35 AC in DnD 5e breaks the game. True enemies could just have enemies have +20 attack bonuses, or I could only use Tiamat and Tarrasque and now that's just the game, the game where you fight Tiamat and Tarrasque. I consider that breaking the game though.

I reject this entirely because I think you’re putting a band-aid on a gaping wound. An Exalt’s real measure of power usually isn’t the attribute or ability pool, but rather the charms they wield and how they’re applied. There’s a world of difference between someone who has INT+OCC of 10 and another who has the same thing but with charms.

Nonsense! Limiting the dots limits both the ballooning effect of excellencies and also charm access.

A Solar with 5 dex and 5 melee with a specialty has a base decisive pool of 11, boostable to 21 with just the excellency. Also with 5 in melee he has access to Invincible Fury of the Dawn, letting him make a bunch of attacks in one turn supplemented at a huge discount by his other charms, and also access to Fivefold Bulwark Stance, to make himself immune to onslaught and make Dipping Swallow a 1m excellency that also cancels all other penalties.

A solar with 3 Dex and 3 Melee? They have a base pool of 6, boostable to 12, and their multi-attack charms and penalty negation stops at Bulwark Stance and Peony Blossom. Still good, still powerful, but not nearly as much. The 5s guy will trigger Peony Blossom and then reflexively activate IFotD, launching 5 attacks all with the same base accuracy as the other guy's full excellency accuracy.


I'm not saying that the Dawn should be limited like that, they're the fighting caste, their fighting should be impressive. If you're in a battle where it's just one Dawn against one or two other things like a storm serpent, then yeah that's maybe something that you should just skip, not worth it. But seven storm serpents against the full circle, that's different. Or, at least, I think should be different. Not even as like, Dawn takes 3, everyone else takes one or something either. If a few of the storm elementals are ganging up on one of the guys that isn't a Dawn, in other words not one of the fighting castes, the Dawn now needs IFotD, because he needs to end this fight, or at least bring it to the point where his side has the advantage.

If you're not playing a kind of game that would feel the other side of that, like the Dawn being rescued in some non-combat scenario, you could just play a party of Dawns and have Exalted: Tournament Fighter. That's the kind of party that could definitely be justified in just ignoring all combats outside of two directional war gods teaming up to try and kick their ass. You might have trouble if you do get into a social scene with somebody you're not immediately inclined to kill, but that's that all-Dawns all-Day party for you.

[webkilla]

Okay, but look at the mechanics, look at the antagonists. There's something like two pages on the leadership 'system' as a really loose general advice about how actions should have consequences and how you can use appropriate dots of appropriate backgrounds to deal with appropriate issues, without really hammering out any good guidelines or specifics.

What about the combat system? Several pages including actions like taking cover, disengaging, defending other, full defense, aiming, there's environmental penalties, wound penalties, onslaught penalties, prone penalties, poison penalties, bonuses for being mounted, combat poisons, battlegroups, orders, pre-battle group fight modifiers, two different classifications of attacks, weapon stats, weapon tags, merits which affect how fast you draw weapons, how fast you move in combat, bonus join battle merit.

The antagonists too, there are some like Isabet Maken, the Master of Cauldron Valley, but there's also barrow hounds, black hollows, molehounds, fang blossoms, rothoppers, steel eaters, storm serpents, giant constrictors and on and on and on.

If I'm to assume that a ghostfisher, Shai-Hulud, may His passing cleanse the world, is something that should just be skipped over because fighting one isn't the point of the game, why are there so many things like him, and why are the mechanics for playing that fight out so deep? I would argue that fighting a 500 foot long undead sandworm actually should be one of the big draws of Exalted, but even if it isn't, why is the game set up to make it seem like it is?

my point was that "mere mortal" foes like a guild factor might not be that much of a direct threat anymore - but... shai hulud (may his passing of gas cleanse my nostrils) or that level of threat should totally warrant player involvement. Point was that low level stuff woulddn't be that much fun to deal with anymore, so as a good ST, one should find greater challenges for the players

ornery storm serpents, or a kaiju, or a sidereal sending love-letters in your name to all the gods of disease in Yu-Shan - you know, stuff that's a bit more challenging to deal with than a guild factor sending a few hundred mercs to rough you up.

[Grod_the_giant]

I'm not saying you can't run mortal games, but the core system in no way makes accommodations for them. Mortals have an absolute draught of things they can do.

Do they mortals have fewer mechanical options than a character with Charms? Absolutely. But my point is that the system has sufficient depth in base mechanics that it doesn't matter if the character has a lot of special abilities or not. Attributes, Abilities, Specialties, and Merits are give you more and more granular character development than a heck of a lot of other systems.

You mention the 5e Champion Fighter, but that's an issue because they can really only do one thing effectively--stand next to the foe and deal hit point damage. In Ex3, the withering/decisive split alone makes combat a lot more dynamic, but that's not all.

• Movement is far more of a tactical affair than in D&D.
• Flurries greatly expand your options on a given turn.
• Things like Gambits and Defend Other are actually worth using, in contrast to unboosted Shoves and completely unsupported ad-hoc maneuvers.
• Weapon properties add a whole new level of complexity, since at non-Exalted scale properties like Chopping and Disarming make a noticeable difference.

And unlike D&D, there are actual systems for doing stuff with skills, and the difference between two dots and five dots is much more significant than between d20+2 and d20+5.

my point was that "mere mortal" foes like a guild factor might not be that much of a direct threat anymore - but... shai hulud (may his passing of gas cleanse my nostrils) or that level of threat should totally warrant player involvement.

I think the point is that the published material includes lots of flavorful, supposedly-dangerous supernatural threats that should be significant but in practice simply don't have the numbers they need to interact properly with players.

[TheCountAlucard]

I think the point is that the published material includes lots of flavorful, supposedly-dangerous supernatural threats that should be significant but in practice simply don't have the numbers they need to interact properly with players.

I mean, they are significant, if you follow the advice in the book and don't prioritize maximizing your numbers at character creation. I had a player build an Eclipse Caste where a fight with a single Blood Ape was absolutely tense and flavorful.

[DrLoveMonkey]

my point was that "mere mortal" foes like a guild factor might not be that much of a direct threat anymore - but... shai hulud (may his passing of gas cleanse my nostrils) or that level of threat should totally warrant player involvement. Point was that low level stuff woulddn't be that much fun to deal with anymore, so as a good ST, one should find greater challenges for the players

ornery storm serpents, or a kaiju, or a sidereal sending love-letters in your name to all the gods of disease in Yu-Shan - you know, stuff that's a bit more challenging to deal with than a guild factor sending a few hundred mercs to rough you up.

Yeah, the issue is Storm Serpents have these three attacks:

Tail Strike 11 Dice (Damage 10)
Bite 9 Dice (Damage 8)
Claw 12 Dice (Damage 6)


That's an angry storm elemental, and actually he is kind of badass compared to a soldier. His tail strike deals less damage but is 3 dice more accurate, and he's got 6 more soak and 12 more hardness, plus the charms. It's just that nobody cares because every PC has 10 soak and 6 defense and you're pretty much immune to it.

[Lioness]

Na. If anything this is dismissive. You don’t warrant the Exalt’s own personal attention, instead sending a summoned lacky to deal with you (Who is more than capable of taking the task on themselves. Literally the only way a Guild Factor can survive an encounter with potent supernatural beings like this is if they call in favors from other supernaturals. Even Masters of Jade mentions this.

Eh, agree to disagree.

[TheCountAlucard]

In a system where fights typically resolve in less than thirty seconds in-game, I’d say that by making the Exalt spend six hours per demon on the summoning rituals to call them into Creation, dealing with the Guildsman has actually been a time-sink orders of magnitude larger than the supernatural assassin.

(And all that’s assuming the spirit summoning does solve the Exalt’s Guild problem without creating a host of other problems, neither aspect of which is a given.)

[Mizu]

While there is certainly a major case of conflicting expectations, Exalted 3E was kind of billed as getting rid of the old editions' "mortals don't matter" atmosphere. Or downplaying it, at least. The fact that it didn't do it is a disappointment.

Not by making it so that a mortal swordsmen is able to sword fight a 5/5/1 (sword specialty) melee supernal dawn caste or the mortal priest is more charismatic figure then your charismatic god king zenith with 5/5/1 (public speaking specialty) and a social supernal. By emphasizing that mortals are perfectly capable of doing things like flanking an exalt and coming at them from an area that isn't the exalts area of specialty (EX: instead of trying to outsword Invincible Sword Princess you poison her drink or have a sorcerer curse the hell out of her) instead of acting like suicidal video game enemies who exist to just brainlessly charge at the player and die on their sword. Whether or not they succeeded at that is a different argument but their intent was never to make it so that a mortal who tried to outdo an exalt in that exalt's field of specialty had a hope in hell of succeeding. If exalts weren't beyond the human baseline then what is even the point of having them instead of just telling mortals to git gud and reach exalt level through hard work?