Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

My Problem With Chargen

Collapse
This topic is closed.
X
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #61
    Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post
    Timmy's aren't inherently based on combat, it's an artifact of the term coming from MtG.
    Whatever Timmy wants to do, Timmy can do it by playing the appropriate caste.

    Timmy wants a big sword swinging amazon? Dawn.
    Timmy wants to be master of the mystic arts? Twilight.
    Timmy wants to be the slickest priest that graced Creation? Zenith.

    The game doesn't need to cater to some hypothetical player who wants to be an awesome warrior but doesn't want to play an awesome warrior. That's my point. Especially not in the name of catering to the social player.

    Originally posted by Yamajin View Post
    I'm not going to reply to a good chunk of what's already been said and instead chime in with something I think is part of the problem that no-one has really touched on from what I see here. One of the big problems with 3E as far as something that allows a PC to be good at just about everything is that unless you're actively trying not to, chances are you are going to start with 10 excellencies at least. This gives you the ability to brute force 40% of the abilities in the game, giving you a solid amount of competency over just about everything you could want. The example in the original post of every PC rolling like 4+ on Awareness is a good example of this- with only 1 dot in Favored Awareness and at least 3 Perception you can throw 8 dice at Awareness rolls even though your character is an absolute amateur by the standards set by the game.
    Yes, but this is good.

    The Exalted (in general but Solars more than most) are meant to be excellent in all things and unsurpassed (for certain values of "unsurpassed") in their field of specialty.

    Dr. Who has a sonic screwdriver so they can't be foiled by something as simple as a locked door. The Exalted have Excellencies.

    The issue isn't "the PCs win". The PCs are supposed to win.

    The issue is "the PCs win trivially and at no cost".

    Spend a few motes to get past the locked door. Spend a few motes to detect the ambush. Spend a few more to shrug off the poison. Spend a few more to Join Battle.

    You're now going into combat with half your peripheral pool already spent.

    And if you're not sitting on a resting Parry of 9 (5/5/1, mounted, medium weapon, stunt) but of 6 (3/3/1, medium weapon, stunt), then maybe you might spend a few more motes in combat to make sure you're never hit. I mean, not if you're fighting an Agata throwing 6 dice attacks at you. But a combat focused demon like a Blood Ape throwing 11 dice attacks is probably enough to make you want to spend a few motes to boost up your Parry from 6.

    And now you're risking flaring your anima and revealing yourself as Anathema. Now your spending resources. Now the antagonists are challenging you and making you earn your victory. Now your bookish scholar actually makes sense -- no, they're not the greatest swordfighter in the world, but they can fight on that level thanks to the magic of the sun coursing through their veins.

    Using your magical superpowers to win is the point of having magical superpowers.

    Read a letter in pitch darkness... using magic.
    Run for three days and three nights... with magic.
    Shrug off deadly snake venom... by magic.

    Just having Sherlock Holmes be able to blow through these challenges "just because" is what causes the problem. Throwing a casual, non-magical, 13 dice at a difficulty 3 poison is a waste of time. But if you only have 6 dice, then THAT is worth rolling for. Even if you can boost up to 13 dice by spending motes, you still have to spend the motes. So it's still a challenge worth having.


    Hi, I'm JohnDoe244. My posts represent my opinions, not facts.

    Comment


    • #62
      That also encourages people to think more and can make the varied skills of the circle matter more. Like if you use your Supernal awareness to detect a hint of hemlock in your drink, or socialize to detect the murderous intent of the one pouring it at the court dinner,

      Or even if nobody detects it, if you have some people sick from it that’s what the medicine Supernal guy helps with. Half the circle would be fending off the assassins with -4 penalties and likely wound penalties on top of that if not for the super doctor mashing together a fig, willow bark and cow fat into a paste that counteracts it.

      Or none of those things and everyone just muscles through it by blowing motes into their resistance excellency, and are starting the fight down 8m already. Except the resistance Supernal guy who only needed to spend 3 on his anti poison charm.

      Whatever happens the poison mattered and player choices mattered.

      Comment


      • #63
        Originally posted by DrLoveMonkey View Post
        Also, you don’t even hit a Solar with a base defence of 3 using a 5 die pool unless they want to give you the chance, they’ll easily double it to 6 with charms/stunt whatever, it’s just that at least there’s enough of a point that motes got spent to totally nullify the attack. The only way an agata hits a Solar who’s using his charms to defend himself is if his defence is 1-2 base, like 2 dodge, 1 Dex pretty much. Even then they have a good chance to miss.
        Dex 1 Melee 1 = Parry 1
        + sword = Parry 2
        + full excellency = Parry 3
        + willpower = Parry 4
        + stunt = Parry 5/6/7
        (+ mounted = Parry 8)
        (+ Full Defense = Parry 10)
        Dipping Swallow Defence cancels any penalties.


        Hi, I'm JohnDoe244. My posts represent my opinions, not facts.

        Comment


        • #64
          Originally posted by DrLoveMonkey View Post

          I don't think this is an inevitable result of a classless system. The example I gave back in the thread:

          ability 1: 3 total xp cost
          ability 2: 7 total xp cost
          ability 3: 13 total xp cost
          ability 4: 21 total xp cost
          ability 5: 31 total xp cost

          Say you get 70xp to spread among them, you could have 5 melee, 5 occult, and 2 awareness, but thems your only abilities, everything else is zero, no integrity, no resistance, no athletics. Meaning no charms in any of those abilities, not even the excellency. It's technically possible to do, but you're discouraged so hard by giving up so much that I don't imagine it would be nearly the same problem. You'd still have a Dawn with 5 melee for sure, but the Twilight would have to think pretty hard if he also wants 5 melee, or maybe a few dots sprinkled around lore and resistance and the like.

          You could go even lower, say a 50xp starting ability budget, then you literally can't do it, but it's still a classless system, and it absolutely does not have the problem where everyone is a legendary fighter in addition to everything else they are.
          Doesn’t matter. Given enough time and XP players will dip into multiple areas in a classless game. I’ve seen it happen multiple times in my own games in Exalted, games outside of Exalted, and other people’s games. Some like M&M are the exception to this, but that’s because the way powers work you’re encouraged to build things related to your character (1 PP to make alternate power) or probably wait 20 sessions to get something completely new. Characters grow and develop in new ways, and I see no issue with that.

          And now I’m going to make a massive mistake I’m going to regret: I’m bringing in the exponential XP argument. But there’s a reason for this.

          Do you know one of the reasons why people hate exponential XP monkey? Because in most cases the purchase is a completely boring decision that virtually no one enjoys. Since literally the very beginning I’ve started with Exalted people haven’t enjoyed them. Yes, raw math is important and that’s one reason why people need to do such a thing, but what is ultimately the kicker here is that such attribute/ability minimums are literally a “You must this high to ride” stat. One reason why people took 5/5’s wasn’t only because it was by far the most optimal route, but also because people didn’t want be arsed with their ability minimums. Hell this was a case even long before supernal. This is one of the reasons why Holden was so utterly slammed by fans when he defended exponential XP, because people want to use that XP to instead buy cooler things such as the ability shoot eye lasers and the ability to teleport rather than a single measly dot that gives me +1 to an ability. This is exactly why splat XP is a thing, because people overjoyed that at last they could use XP to buy cool eye lasers instead of a single die in something. This is because charms are the true extent of an Exalt’s capabilities and always have been.


          Originally posted by DrLoveMonkey View Post
          Right, that's why you personally find them boring to use in play. Why is it that they should be mechanically incapable of threatening the Eclipse? Let's assume they had huge mechanical depth, like deeper than any edition of DnD by a half. Why can they not have numbers capable of threatening a non-combat focused character?

          You might say that having 5 melee means he is a combat focused character, but when it's 10% of just his starting chargen resources, how is that a focus?

          Whenever the five mortals are nothing more than glorified dummies to style over or a serious threat isn’t my point. My point is that RAW mortals are boring as hell to fight. If you want an example of what I’d like to see in mortals, look at Rand’s martial artist enemies. Enemies are given a few simple tricks to make all of them function very differently from one another. Even if my Eclipse is a 5/5 and would still be a joke, I can at least feel the characters through the difference of their mechanics alone. Some people say the only difference between characters is pure narrative and I think that’s entirely false, I think many things can be said about a character through their mechanics alone. This is what I meant about my opponents being engaging. This is why I rewrote battle groups, because magical creatures suddenly turning all magical advantages into a generic catch-all dice adder, and turning anything unique that opponent might’ve had into a faceless wall of numbers kills my own immersion.


          Originally posted by DrLoveMonkey View Post
          Okay, but the book tells me that those statlines are the statlines of directional wargods and lords of the greatest empires in Hell. Those foes are the top end of some of the things that exist in the setting. I don't want to play a game in a setting where huge published parts of it are automatically worthless to any story I'm going to tell or game I'm going to play. Nobody is publishing Godbound books with 200 pages of various statted up peasant militia antagonists.
          The 2e book told me someone with Bureaucracy 5 can remake the Realm’s political structure to be far more efficient. This was laughed at by everyone, past and present developers included. I don’t put a lot of faith into the same ability minimums the book describes as they were always laughable when used in context of supernatural creatures.

          Also just because you have 5/5 doesn’t mean you’re going to be challenging a directional war god to combat anytime soon. Why? Because that War God’s natural skill with a weapon is enhanced greatly by the charms they wield. This is because the charms are the true embodiment of that god’s skill, a representation of their own personality, tactics, and prowess. Alhat isn’t one of the greatest spearmen of the South merely because of 5/5, but because he also went beyond those mortal limits and made powerful charms to really hammer the point home.

          And no, Godbound doesn’t need to that because it already has rules to so. Those super legendary mortals have guidelines on what they can have (Including the entire DnD 3.5e library) while mortal peasants are the one exception I have to mortals being different. A mortal peasant isn’t expected to fight so it doesn’t bother me in the slightest if they have no special skills.

          Originally posted by DrLoveMonkey View Post
          But you're not just immune to 90% of things. You're immune to 99.999999% of things. You're immune to 90% of the published antagonists. In DnD once you get to level 10 you're easily immune to 99% of the things in most DnD worlds. There's millions of peasants and animals who live there that you would cut down like wheat. If the Exalted are immune to 99.99999% of the creatures in Creation, which they probably are, publish antagonists consisting of the 0.00001% which are not that. Also don't let players accidentally take 2 melee, because your game isn't designed that way.

          The 100+ enemies in the books there to just say "Look at this badass thing, well it's worthless compared to you. Look at this badass thing, well it's worthless compared to you"

          Again here, it's not because that way even very unskilled players can participate. An enemy with a 5-7 die pool just hits a wall when trying to attack somebody with a 7 Parry, even if they totally forget that excellencies are a thing.
          Yes once you hit level 10 in DnD you’re immune to a lot of things in the setting, but there’s still higher level things you can find and engage with in the setting. This goes with exactly what I was saying before: Power attracts power.

          And I don’t consider the animal thing you mentioned before a bad thing, I consider it a good thing. “Wow, I’m so strong that I can shred a Tiger to ribbons without much effort on my part” is a very empowering feeling to have, and is often one reason people play Exalted.


          Originally posted by DrLoveMonkey View Post
          I would say that not keeping up with the Dawn in combat is a feature of being a Dawn. You're not supposed to keep up with the Dawn in combat, if you want to do that be a Dawn. You can absolutely contribute with just 3 dex and 3 melee and the charms that 3 melee gives you, you're not going to keep pace, but you're not supposed to either. If you want to know why ask the Dawn to take the wheel of the ship at night during a hurricane and see how well he keeps up with your Supernal Sail.

          Except if he took Sail 5 Wits 5 he actually would be perfectly capable of that. The thing is that's just not something I see all the time, I do see people thoughtlessly taking 5 melee all the time.
          What you’re proposing is the equivalent of taking attribute 14 main in DnD 4e and then be expected to keep up to the Attribute 18 main. “Keeping up” in this case is remaining statistically relevant, while the true meaning of a character’s charms are the measure of a characters power. There’s a world of difference between a Twilight with 3-4 melee charms and a Brawler with 10-12 of them, even if they’re both 5/5. “Keep up” in this sense means that you’re at least both fighting on the same plane instead of scaling a cliff. The only difference you have a convertible to the Dawn’s sports car.

          Hell, I remember seeing a homebrew way back called Lightbringers that just made it so an Exalted’s dice pool to attack was just 10 flat before modifiers (Accuracy, specialties), with any dice you wanted to add by excellencies working off ATT+ABIL (or other dice caps) as normal. The more I look at things the more I wonder if the person who made that was onto something. Players don’t need to worry about their own base stat pools but shine through super well with excellencies.

          Originally posted by DrLoveMonkey View Post
          The reason being that it's screwing with the functioning of the antagonists, because the investigator is casually slicing through demons the way a Dawn should be, and the Dawn is so far beyond even that that it's pointless to bring almost anything into a fight. Somebody sent a bunch of militia guys to the investigators house? Yeah, okay, he's a Solar, even if he's a little good with his hands those guys are doomed, and should be.
          I fundamentally disagree. If you want that kind of niche protection, then I’d recommend looking into other games. Part of the reason I enjoy Exalted is because of this flexibility. I can decide exactly how I want my character to play out. Ex3 does a better job of this than Ex2 ever did. In Ex2 the Twilight was by far the best battle caste, but now in Ex3 the Dawn is almost always going to pull ahead. Supernal assures there’s a huge advantage directly at the start. At Essence 5 that gap is in theory gone, but usually it’s still there. A Twilight may not put the time and effort into getting near as many charms as the Dawn does. Even if the Twilight gets the Essence 5 Melee charm Sword of the Cosmos, he’ll probably be outclassed as the Dawn simply bought far more of them over the course of the game and is encouraged to buy them as the combat class, whereas the Twilight was encouraged to buy other things.


          Originally posted by DrLoveMonkey View Post
          I'm not talking about endgame anything, I'm talking about session one, right off the bat. If session one Essence 1 I have to start busting out Deathlords and 3CDs there's issues. I want to be able to have an Exalted battle with giant sandworms, and angry storm elementals, but I can't, I need to start things off with the Mask of Winters and then just have nowhere to go.
          Funny you mention that, as I’ve had PC’s start off against Deathlord’s while they were Essence 1 (In some cases still mortal).
          But you’re exaggerating. You can very easily make compelling stories early on. There’s a difference between using interesting but weak opponents early on (something I do specifically to test what the PC’s are capable of and how they act) versus when it’s time to take off the gloves.


          Originally posted by DrLoveMonkey View Post
          Somebody with Dex 2, Melee 4 and a specialty has a 10 die attack with their daiklave, boostable up to 16 with +16 base damage, a base 5 parry boostable to 8 before anything else like Hail Shattering Practice, and bitchin charms like Sandstorm-Wind Attack and Peony Blossom Attack.

          He fucking IS a cool sword dude. He makes storm elementals cry like little babies while he smashes them multiple times in a turn. He takes a manticore and turns them inside-out with ease. Plus even without spending any essence that 5 parry alone makes him effectively immune to enemies like brigands and medium infantry. What's not cool about that?
          I had a topic like this with Heavyarms probably a year or so back. Here’s the summary: Timmy’s cool sword dude is going to run into a brick wall with the Chad 5/5. The Chad 5/5 is going to have a higher base pool for not only their normal attacks and easily hit something the Timmy would struggle with but add even more dice as well. Anything that’s going to remotely challenge the Chad 5/5 is going to be miserable hell for Timmy.

          Originally posted by DrLoveMonkey View Post
          You should assume that people aren't going to be total min-maxing monsters in all your games, but you have to assume they're not going to be completely dumb and decide that with the concept of "cool sword dude" they're going to take physical tertiary, melee 3, use none of their 4 specialties on anything sword related, and don't take one of the cool magic swords in the cool magic sword section of the book.
          5/2/4. There, eight-point primary physical spread. In DnD terms this’d be like an 18 in STR, 10 in DEX, and 16 in CON. Speciality is something I assumed and generally leave out. Unless you’re a DB the Chad 5/5 and Timmy are probably going to each have one, so it’s somewhat moot.

          Let’s avoid the STR for Accuracy/Defense debate. I’ve already had that one.

          Secondly, there is a difference I pointed out between minmaxing and optimization in the thread early. 5/5 in a stat is hardly minmaxing, most builds can easily afford to do this without breaking too much. Even Lunars can pull this off, who have to be far stingier with their ability dots. Minmaxing is when they do enough tweaks to basically get 10-12 resting parry at chargen and makes the ST want to beat his brains out.

          Originally posted by JohnDoe244 View Post

          That's how you are expected to build a Circle. That's the level NPCs are pitched at.

          Not five Melee 5 combat monsters.

          Wrong.

          Originally posted by Exalted Core page 149
          YES, YOU CAN TAKE A 5
          It’s incredibly rare for someone in the world of Exalted to have an Attribute or Ability rated at five dots. A professional soldier enlisted in a standing army most likely has Melee ••, while a cunning courtier whose web of lies and blackmail have snared an entire court in his influence might only have Manipulation •••. A character who has five dots of raw talent in an Attribute or five dots of skill in an Ability is a prodigy even among other prodigies of his field, a living legend whose feats might defy belief.

          Sounds like the Exalted, doesn’t it?

          If you want your character to be one of the strongest men in the world, the greatest savant in generations of scholarship, or an unsurpassed master of the martial arts, you can take five dots. While we encourage you to let your character concept define the ratings of their Attributes and Abilities, rather than the other way around, it is totally valid to buy a trait all the way up to five at character creation if that’s what makes sense for your character.

          The only justification I need for my character to have 5’s is because I want them to have 5’s. That’s it. If I want my character to have a 5/5 then what is stopping me? Literally the only exception I can think of is if everyone else are Timmy’s and I’m way ahead of them. But if everyone else is between 0-3 dice of each other and one player is below that? You’re going to have the talk of expectations.


          Originally posted by JohnDoe244 View Post
          The vast majority of players aren't hyper optimized min-maxers? Sure, agree.

          The vast majority of players don't remember Excellencies exist? Absolutely reject. You're gonna have to back that up with some kind of evidence. Because I can point to four actual plays where they use Excellencies.
          OK I’ll pull back players not remember excellencies, but I will maintain that new players are constantly overwhelmed by charm choice and often forget what they can do in the heat of the moment.

          Originally posted by JohnDoe244 View Post
          Using your DFO example, most players couldn't handle the new raid... but they COULD handle the rest of the game's content. Most Exalted players aren't building characters that can solo an Elemental Dragon but they are building characters that can solo a Storm Serpent. There's a difference between catering to the majority of the player base and catering to the bottom 5%.
          Players gained access to the content often through a long gear progression train, which in Exalted would be getting more charms and boosting essence. But the difference between Anton and normal play would be more like “Elemental dragons are common enemy in this raid. If you cannot solo a storm serpent in three turns or under then you will not be accepted into any raids. If you cannot do it in six turns, then the cost for being carried in a raid is doubled.” It made Ancient dungeons, another sort of dungeon around that time that was often very difficult, seem like an absolute joke in comparison.

          This is why I believe cuts for enemies should be considered. If your circle doesn’t have an average accuracy or damage above a certain amount? Then you shouldn’t expect them to beat such a thing in a straight out right. You’ll need to weaken the enemy, introduce macguffins, or have some other way of weakening the opponent. Otherwise, your players are going to crash into a brick wall.


          Read my shit at my homebrew topic, 2.5e and 3e material!
          Play Alchemical's in 3e now, you're welcome.

          Comment


          • #65
            Okay I think we’re getting off track here, like the mortals thing you’re just completely misunderstanding me. Sandact, almost every published enemy in Ex3 is worthless as a combat antagonist against a party where everyone takes a 5 in their combat ability. This is bullshit. In DnD I can use the entire monster manual for any campaign with characters starting levels 1-5. OPP wasted dozens of pages of of corebook space, and a projected dozens or even hundreds more through subsequent books on antagonists that don’t work with the characters that the chargen rules let you make. In fact for Adversaries and HDNP they’re charging a few dollars for each one, I assume they’re supposed to be useful in some way.

            Is this not a problem?

            Also in agreement with JohnDoe that you can’t cater to the bottom 5% here. The excellency is the most powerful charm in basically any tree, and very Solar gets them for free. As long as you’re remembering them you’re pretty good.

            This isn’t DnD where every character is a warrior, and there’s basically only basic rules for anything outside of combat. If your character isn’t keeping up with the fighter in damage in DnD, and not doing it because he’s casting haste or wallong off the enemy with wall of force, or some other combat trick you’re just being dead weight mechanically. In Exalted being carried in combat and then CRUSHING the next social scene is just as good, in some campaigns better, than keeping up with the Dawn in a fight.

            Comment


            • #66
              Originally posted by Sandact6 View Post
              Wrong.

              The only justification I need for my character to have 5’s is because I want them to have 5’s. That’s it. If I want my character to have a 5/5 then what is stopping me? Literally the only exception I can think of is if everyone else are Timmy’s and I’m way ahead of them. But if everyone else is between 0-3 dice of each other and one player is below that? You’re going to have the talk of expectations.
              The sidebar says yes you can take a five.

              The sample characters in Tomb of Dreams have fives. In the things that literally define the characters. One or two fives in the Abilities most important to them and a couple of the most important Attributes.

              If you're playing the greatest swordfighter in Creation, then you can and should take Melee 5.
              If you're playing the greatest scholar in Creation, then you can and should take Lore 5.
              If you're playing the most convincing salesperson in Creation, then Presence 5 is calling your name.

              But those are supposed to be three different characters.

              "If you want your character to be one of the strongest men in the world, the greatest savant in generations of scholarship, or an unsurpassed master of the martial arts, you can take five dots. While we encourage you to let your character concept define the ratings of their Attributes and Abilities, rather than the other way around, it is totally valid to buy a trait all the way up to five at character creation if that’s what makes sense for your character."

              PT-Sherlock-Aladin-Thor isn't a character concept. I'm sorry, but it's not. Come up with a character, then stat that person out.

              Now if you want to play an optimized game, then sure, go nuts. So long as everyone is within 0-3 dice of each other then that sounds fun to play.

              But the default assumption of the game is that you won't be doing this.

              And we can see this in the sample PCs. We can see this in the 1-5 difficulty chart. We can see this in the QC guidance that says to keep dicepools below 14 dice and avoid going over 11 (so the players don't feel forced to maximize their stats). We see this in the published NPCs.

              Originally posted by Sandact6 View Post
              OK I’ll pull back players not remember excellencies, but I will maintain that new players are constantly overwhelmed by charm choice and often forget what they can do in the heat of the moment.

              Players gained access to the content often through a long gear progression train, which in Exalted would be getting more charms and boosting essence. But the difference between Anton and normal play would be more like “Elemental dragons are common enemy in this raid. If you cannot solo a storm serpent in three turns or under then you will not be accepted into any raids. If you cannot do it in six turns, then the cost for being carried in a raid is doubled.” It made Ancient dungeons, another sort of dungeon around that time that was often very difficult, seem like an absolute joke in comparison.
              Lemme wind this back a bit, because stuff in text looses a lot of context: I think we agree in principle but are haggling over price.

              I agree that players forget what they can do in the heat of the moment.

              I agree that content shouldn't be pitched at a level where only the top 5% of players can use it. I think we both agree here. I think every game designer in history agrees here. (Like, even Dark Souls isn't that hard.) Anton was a mistake.

              But in DFO Ancient Dungeons exist. You can't make an account and walk straight into an Ancient Dungeon. And sure, Anton was much, much harder than an Ancient Dungeon, but the vast majority of DFO content requires some work. Some kind of effort. That's all I'm asking for in Exalted.

              If you build a 5/5/1 Circle of 5 Solars then you've built for Anton and are running through Gran Flores.

              And if you like that... great. I'm not going to stop you playing the game you enjoy.
              And if you don't like that and you want to hack Linus's Request to make it harder... that's also fine. Enjoy yourself.

              DFO isn't designed for you to gear up for Anton then breeze through the beginner content. And Exalted isn't designed for you to maximize your combat stats and trivialize 90% of the published enemies.

              The content for Exalted isn't, and shouldn't be, designed for the top 5% of players.
              But it's not, and shouldn't be, designed for the bottom 5% either.

              And it's not designed as a Dungeon Crawl.

              Iay Selak-Amu is not a bad character because he only has Melee 2. Iay is a good character because he's an actual person with a background and a history who isn't randomly the greatest spearfighter in the world. Iay is built like an Exalted character "should" be built.

              Now if building like Iay isn't fun for your group, you don't have to build like that. Exalted gives you a lot of freedom to do what you think is going to be fun. But if you don't build to the expectations of the game, you're going to either breeze through everything or have to homebrew everything. Your preference, clearly, is to homebrew everything. And there's nothing wrong with that. That's an absolutely valid way of playing.

              But if you built your characters like the Tomb of Dreams characters, you wouldn't have to.

              This is why I believe cuts for enemies should be considered. If your circle doesn’t have an average accuracy or damage above a certain amount? Then you shouldn’t expect them to beat such a thing in a straight out right. You’ll need to weaken the enemy, introduce macguffins, or have some other way of weakening the opponent. Otherwise, your players are going to crash into a brick wall.
              Sure. I agree with that too.
              Last edited by JohnDoe244; 02-22-2021, 05:19 PM.


              Hi, I'm JohnDoe244. My posts represent my opinions, not facts.

              Comment


              • #67
                Originally posted by DrLoveMonkey View Post
                Okay I think we’re getting off track here, like the mortals thing you’re just completely misunderstanding me. Sandact, almost every published enemy in Ex3 is worthless as a combat antagonist against a party where everyone takes a 5 in their combat ability. This is bullshit. In DnD I can use the entire monster manual for any campaign with characters starting levels 1-5. OPP wasted dozens of pages of of corebook space, and a projected dozens or even hundreds more through subsequent books on antagonists that don’t work with the characters that the chargen rules let you make. In fact for Adversaries and HDNP they’re charging a few dollars for each one, I assume they’re supposed to be useful in some way.

                Is this not a problem?
                Yes and no.

                Yes because as you mention, many of them don’t mathematically hold up.

                No, because most times I use these enemies for ideas first and foremost. I use them as construction blocks, and tailor them for things that do fit my player group. If Exalted were a unity game, then I’d see such things as unity asset packs. You can shove them into a game sure, but for best results you’re expected to tailor them a bit so they may better suit your needs.

                Exalted has literally never had a gauge for difficulty. I’ve seen multiple times over my ST guide, videos, and chats that such balance factors that exist in DnD (or really a lot of d20 games) don’t exist for Exalted. In Exalted you can have anywhere between a Timmy character to a chad 5/5, and that makes things hell to balance. D20 systems tend not to have this, as their level structure allows for more granularity of “Use these enemies at this PC level for X difficulty encounter” (Let’s put aside how well this actually works aside and pretend it’s a platonic ideal of how it works).

                Exalted does not have that. I doubt it will ever have that. There are simply so many builds one can have that attempting to do such balancing acts are a fools errand. You can force lower stats like you suggested, but this only delays the problem. Smart players are going to immediately gun for such a thing. Lightbringers was the closest thing I’ve seen to patch this, in which it used a variation of Holden’s method of alternate growth (EX: Every X sessions you get a dot to put into something, every Y sessions it must be a combat ability).

                Also yes I agree, Exalted (all editions) has frontloaded the combat decision choices to the ST, for good and bad. The fact that I and others had to help people do this for literal years honestly makes me feel ill to this day.

                Originally posted by DrLoveMonkey View Post
                Also in agreement with JohnDoe that you can’t cater to the bottom 5% here. The excellency is the most powerful charm in basically any tree, and very Solar gets them for free. As long as you’re remembering them you’re pretty good.

                This isn’t DnD where every character is a warrior, and there’s basically only basic rules for anything outside of combat. If your character isn’t keeping up with the fighter in damage in DnD, and not doing it because he’s casting haste or wallong off the enemy with wall of force, or some other combat trick you’re just being dead weight mechanically. In Exalted being carried in combat and then CRUSHING the next social scene is just as good, in some campaigns better, than keeping up with the Dawn in a fight.
                I think I answered this in the previous block.

                I will also note the reason I harp so much on combat is because it leads to character death. The way I see it is that a bad social roll or a bad lore roll will get you into trouble or possibly dead ends, but a character who significantly lags behind in combat (By four dice or more) is going to be a liability in general. Social/Mental characters are given far more leeway. A failed social/mental roll can put you in a ton of danger, but I’ve rarely met a GM who decided that a single random roll instantly kills you.

                I will note that there are ways you can still contribute in combat if you make your character right, but this is often the exception rather than the norm. The only time I've seen this done is by a person who knows the game very well but is testing something on a character or goofing off.

                Originally posted by JohnDoe244 View Post
                The sidebar says yes you can take a five.

                The sample characters in Tomb of Dreams have fives. In the things that literally define the characters. One or two fives in the Abilities most important to them and a couple of the most important Attributes.

                If you're playing the greatest swordfighter in Creation, then you can and should take Melee 5.
                If you're playing the greatest scholar in Creation, then you can and should take Lore 5.
                If you're playing the most convincing salesperson in Creation, then Presence 5 is calling your name.

                But those are supposed to be three different characters.

                "If you want your character to be one of the strongest men in the world, the greatest savant in generations of scholarship, or an unsurpassed master of the martial arts, you can take five dots. While we encourage you to let your character concept define the ratings of their Attributes and Abilities, rather than the other way around, it is totally valid to buy a trait all the way up to five at character creation if that’s what makes sense for your character."

                PT-Sherlock-Aladin-Thor isn't a character concept. I'm sorry, but it's not. Come up with a character, then stat that person out.

                Now if you want to play an optimized game, then sure, go nuts. So long as everyone is within 0-3 dice of each other then that sounds fun to play.

                But the default assumption of the game is that you won't be doing this.
                It largely depends on the sort of game yes, but if a character wants to make a Captain Nemo character who has both Sail 5 and Melee 5 I wouldn’t find such a thing odd at all. If a character thinks they will have more fun with their concept, they aren’t attempting to actively munchkin, or they have some broken combo that would shatter the balance/tone of the game then I don’t see why I would deny them that.

                But if someone has a 2/5/2 5/3/3 1/5/1 spread with Melee, Sail, Presence, Performance, and Occult at 5? That’s usually a dead flag for me for other intentions. Hell the buy in to do this sort of thing is so bad that it often makes lopsided characters.

                Originally posted by JohnDoe244 View Post
                And we can see this in the sample PCs. We can see this in the 1-5 difficulty chart. We can see this in the QC guidance that says to keep dicepools below 14 dice and avoid going over 11 (so the players don't feel forced to maximize their stats). We see this in the published NPCs.
                Essence is revamping some of the difficulties to 3/5/7. This is because I think they realized that if people don’t get 5/5’s out of the gate, the game soft pushes you to have such a thing by I’m guessing early-mid essence 2, simply because that’s when charm prereqs start climbing. I wouldn’t use difficulty 7 lightly, but it’s something that gives a challenge to the higher power Exalts.

                Originally posted by JohnDoe244 View Post
                Lemme wind this back a bit, because stuff in text looses a lot of context: I think we agree in principle but are haggling over price.

                I agree that players forget what they can do in the heat of the moment.

                I agree that content shouldn't be pitched at a level where only the top 5% of players can use it. I think we both agree here. I think every game designer in history agrees here. (Like, even Dark Souls isn't that hard.) Anton was a mistake.

                But in DFO Ancient Dungeons exist. You can't make an account and walk straight into an Ancient Dungeon. And sure, Anton was much, much harder than an Ancient Dungeon, but the vast majority of DFO content requires some work. Some kind of effort. That's all I'm asking for in Exalted.

                If you build a 5/5/1 Circle of 5 Solars then you've built for Anton and are running through Gran Flores.

                And if you like that... great. I'm not going to stop you playing the game you enjoy.
                And if you don't like that and you want to hack Linus's Request to make it harder... that's also fine. Enjoy yourself.

                DFO isn't designed for you to gear up for Anton then breeze through the beginner content. And Exalted isn't designed for you to maximize your combat stats and trivialize 90% of the published enemies.
                This is where I think your analogy falls apart.

                See in DFO I can’t change the difficulty to much. Sure I can decide is Basement of Pain is on Normal or Hard, but that’s really about it.

                But for tabletop games? I can do whatever I want to the NPC’s. I can give them whatever is needed to give a fun experience to the players. As what I said with monkey, I don’t believe in using things out of the box. I believe in tinkering them until they’re right for the current group and game.

                Originally posted by JohnDoe244 View Post
                Iay Selak-Amu is not a bad character because he only has Melee 2. Iay is a good character because he's an actual person with a background and a history who isn't randomly the greatest spearfighter in the world. Iay is built like an Exalted character "should" be built.

                Now if building like Iay isn't fun for your group, you don't have to build like that. Exalted gives you a lot of freedom to do what you think is going to be fun. But if you don't build to the expectations of the game, you're going to either breeze through everything or have to homebrew everything. Your preference, clearly, is to homebrew everything. And there's nothing wrong with that. That's an absolutely valid way of playing.

                But if you built your characters like the Tomb of Dreams characters, you wouldn't have to.
                You claim that your ideal characters are those from Tomb of Dreams. I’d say mine are Jiunan Nightwarden, Admiral Sand, Strength of Many, Maiden of Mirthless Smile, Crimson Banner Executioner, Lieutenant Risa, and Excessively Righteous Blossom are ones I’d more accurately call starting characters.

                John, I reject the notion that the Tomb of Dreams characters are the way you ought to play Exalted. Such a notion is pure poppycock. The only correct way to play the game is in the way you and your group enjoy the most.


                Read my shit at my homebrew topic, 2.5e and 3e material!
                Play Alchemical's in 3e now, you're welcome.

                Comment


                • #68
                  The only correct way to play the game is in the way you and your group enjoy the most.
                  And yet many groups find it not particularly enjoyable to have 90% of the things in Creation to not be worth picking up dice to fight.

                  And I, as an ST, don't find it particularly enjoyable to take interesting critters from the book and arbitrarily increase their numbers to the point where regular heroes stand no chance against them, for the sake of making it worth getting out the dice to fight against a bunch of minmaxed PCs who aren't built like people who have had to live in the world they're stomping around in.
                  Last edited by TheCountAlucard; 02-22-2021, 10:57 PM.


                  He/him

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Originally posted by Sandact6 View Post

                    Yes and no.

                    Yes because as you mention, many of them don’t mathematically hold up.

                    No, because most times I use these enemies for ideas first and foremost. I use them as construction blocks, and tailor them for things that do fit my player group. If Exalted were a unity game, then I’d see such things as unity asset packs. You can shove them into a game sure, but for best results you’re expected to tailor them a bit so they may better suit your needs.

                    Exalted has literally never had a gauge for difficulty. I’ve seen multiple times over my ST guide, videos, and chats that such balance factors that exist in DnD (or really a lot of d20 games) don’t exist for Exalted. In Exalted you can have anywhere between a Timmy character to a chad 5/5, and that makes things hell to balance. D20 systems tend not to have this, as their level structure allows for more granularity of “Use these enemies at this PC level for X difficulty encounter” (Let’s put aside how well this actually works aside and pretend it’s a platonic ideal of how it works).

                    Exalted does not have that. I doubt it will ever have that. There are simply so many builds one can have that attempting to do such balancing acts are a fools errand. You can force lower stats like you suggested, but this only delays the problem. Smart players are going to immediately gun for such a thing. Lightbringers was the closest thing I’ve seen to patch this, in which it used a variation of Holden’s method of alternate growth (EX: Every X sessions you get a dot to put into something, every Y sessions it must be a combat ability).

                    Also yes I agree, Exalted (all editions) has frontloaded the combat decision choices to the ST, for good and bad. The fact that I and others had to help people do this for literal years honestly makes me feel ill to this day.
                    It doesn't have any way to assume what the party is, it could be a circle where nobody took a single combat ability, and one where it's not just 5 chads, it's straight up 5 Dawns, all with Essence 5 combat charm suites.

                    What if it DID though. What if you could write antagonists assuming that, if the group was involving combat at all in a significant way, there would be one Dawn who had a supernal and the full Dawn BS combat charm suite, and everyone else was not a Dawn and had no more than 3 in the ability, at least for the first chunk of the campaign.

                    Likewise in a western campaign, there isn't going to be five Solar grand admirals with artifact 5 ships sailing around in a battlegroup that's so utterly far removed from a sail battle with only one captain with only Sail 3 and no artifact ship, that you couldn't even hope to write an antagonist that spans the gap. It's still something you could do, but it would very explicitly not be what you're supposed to do. The antagonists would largely be written assuming that at most one guy is the Sail supernal grand admiral, and everyone else does other things.

                    Which is what the antagonists are pretty well balanced against anyway. If you just tell your players no duplicate castes, and nobody but the Dawn with combat stats above 3, they totally work. Okay, the zenith who's using Archery only gets to have 4 charms in Archery, and 5 charms in Dodge, and whatever evocations if he took an artifact bow. That's still 2/3 of his chargen charm picks into something that's not his Supernal, if he really wants. The melee guy gets 11 picks from melee, which is over 2/3s even. Even without rejiggering the charm trees to have lower ability prerequisites that doesn't seem broken.

                    Originally posted by Sandact6 View Post
                    I will also note the reason I harp so much on combat is because it leads to character death. The way I see it is that a bad social roll or a bad lore roll will get you into trouble or possibly dead ends, but a character who significantly lags behind in combat (By four dice or more) is going to be a liability in general. Social/Mental characters are given far more leeway. A failed social/mental roll can put you in a ton of danger, but I’ve rarely met a GM who decided that a single random roll instantly kills you.
                    A bad social roll can lead to you betraying the entire circle and handing the One Ring over to the Ring Wraiths, turning your character in to the reason the whole campaign results in failure. Either could be devastating. In combat even there's even a bunch of safety nets against dying, like accepting crippling wounds, and just being incapacitated with a chance of being revived via medicine. That's not a house rule, that's in the book.

                    Anyway though, the entire point of this is that if you're using printed antagonists the guy with melee 3 isn't a liability. They're contributing in combat because the enemy has a defense of 4, and hits with an attack using an accuracy of 7, which means their pools, especially with excellency dice which are a core mechanic of the game for Solars, are well enough to hit and block their attacks a good chunk of the time. Then maybe there's like, a singular larger threat, like a Cataphract leading them. Like how the Cataphract actually has one of its charms be to summon hordes of weaker minions to battle.

                    Also even against the Cataphract, he's got a defense of 7, no way to boost it, and his onslaught penalty cancelling charm costs initiative. If the Dawn gives him the 1-2 punch of crashing him with One Weapon Two Blows, and then follows up with a decisive dealing 5 damage, that Cataphract is sitting at 4 parry, no way to boost or negate it, and then the entire rest of the circle gets to go twice in a row because initiative flopping. Again, you don't need to be the ultimate warrior to contribute there.

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      I'm just going to chime in and say that given how much focus the exalted in general puts on combat (most of the 'system' chapter, half the charms, half the spells, 90% of all artifacts) and how much time it takes in play, saying 1 person in a group gets to play in their own combat tier and everyone else must comparatively suck would be a complete no-sell. Also in this model does no one but the Night or Eclipse get to have 4+ guile etc.?

                      I'd much rather have a game where everyone can meaningfully participate in all the systems. Everyone being a Dex 5 combat ability 5 sorcerer with 5s in a social ability or two while probably going to far in the other direction is still straight up preferable to half the party being practically irrelavant in most scenes.

                      (It's like back in the days of the third edition of another game, sure the books didn't tell you to make an all-caster party, but it was easily the most fun you could have with the system without anyone feeling left out).
                      Last edited by limaxophobiac; 02-23-2021, 02:00 AM.

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Originally posted by TheCountAlucard View Post
                        And yet many groups find it not particularly enjoyable to have 90% of the things in Creation to not be worth picking up dice to fight.

                        And I, as an ST, don't find it particularly enjoyable to take interesting critters from the book and arbitrarily increase their numbers to the point where regular heroes stand no chance against them, for the sake of making it worth getting out the dice to fight against a bunch of minmaxed PCs who aren't built like people who have had to live in the world they're stomping around in.

                        That’s fair. You’re welcome to it, just as the way I’m welcome to my own. We’re both playing the game we want to play and having the best time with it.

                        Also for nomenclature, I’ve already said the difference between minmaxed PC’s vs optimized PC’s. Big difference between the two.

                        Originally posted by DrLoveMonkey View Post
                        It doesn't have any way to assume what the party is, it could be a circle where nobody took a single combat ability, and one where it's not just 5 chads, it's straight up 5 Dawns, all with Essence 5 combat charm suites.

                        What if it DID though. What if you could write antagonists assuming that, if the group was involving combat at all in a significant way, there would be one Dawn who had a supernal and the full Dawn BS combat charm suite, and everyone else was not a Dawn and had no more than 3 in the ability, at least for the first chunk of the campaign.

                        Likewise in a western campaign, there isn't going to be five Solar grand admirals with artifact 5 ships sailing around in a battlegroup that's so utterly far removed from a sail battle with only one captain with only Sail 3 and no artifact ship, that you couldn't even hope to write an antagonist that spans the gap. It's still something you could do, but it would very explicitly not be what you're supposed to do. The antagonists would largely be written assuming that at most one guy is the Sail supernal grand admiral, and everyone else does other things.

                        Which is what the antagonists are pretty well balanced against anyway. If you just tell your players no duplicate castes, and nobody but the Dawn with combat stats above 3, they totally work. Okay, the zenith who's using Archery only gets to have 4 charms in Archery, and 5 charms in Dodge, and whatever evocations if he took an artifact bow. That's still 2/3 of his chargen charm picks into something that's not his Supernal, if he really wants. The melee guy gets 11 picks from melee, which is over 2/3s even. Even without rejiggering the charm trees to have lower ability prerequisites that doesn't seem broken.
                        You still run into the issues of many abilities having higher prereqs, probably beyond what a player can normally get. More than half the archery charms require Archery 4. Dodge has more, but getting double 9s on a disengage roll is Dodge 4. For a small bonus to a specific roll that should be a much lower minimum (or really just a much better charm in general). Tell you what, you redesign all the charms so they have lower ability minimums and then I wouldn’t mind it. Hell, another poster on the board started with lower abilities caps but removed the ability prereqs altogether and only used Essence. I disagree with his premise, but he had an acceptable compromise.

                        The other is that you write a rule hack where people start off with enforced minimums. If people agree to that, cool. But in the context of myself and the game as a whole? No, I ain’t agreeing with that. Because the ways I have work well for me and my players, and I don’t see a reason to fix what isn’t broken for me. You can use what you want to use, but I've tried it before, didn't like it, and don't want to use it.


                        Originally posted by DrLoveMonkey View Post
                        A bad social roll can lead to you betraying the entire circle and handing the One Ring over to the Ring Wraiths, turning your character in to the reason the whole campaign results in failure. Either could be devastating. In combat even there's even a bunch of safety nets against dying, like accepting crippling wounds, and just being incapacitated with a chance of being revived via medicine. That's not a house rule, that's in the book.
                        There’s nothing stopping me from hunting down the Ring Wraiths and beating them up if I wanted to. If the Ring Wraith’s impaled me on their spirits then I’m making a new character sheet. One allows for the continuation of a story, the other an end to my character's story. This loops back to my philosophy on life: So long as you're not dead you can bounce back.


                        Originally posted by DrLoveMonkey View Post
                        Anyway though, the entire point of this is that if you're using printed antagonists the guy with melee 3 isn't a liability. They're contributing in combat because the enemy has a defense of 4, and hits with an attack using an accuracy of 7, which means their pools, especially with excellency dice which are a core mechanic of the game for Solars, are well enough to hit and block their attacks a good chunk of the time. Then maybe there's like, a singular larger threat, like a Cataphract leading them. Like how the Cataphract actually has one of its charms be to summon hordes of weaker minions to battle.

                        Also even against the Cataphract, he's got a defense of 7, no way to boost it, and his onslaught penalty cancelling charm costs initiative. If the Dawn gives him the 1-2 punch of crashing him with One Weapon Two Blows, and then follows up with a decisive dealing 5 damage, that Cataphract is sitting at 4 parry, no way to boost or negate it, and then the entire rest of the circle gets to go twice in a row because initiative flopping. Again, you don't need to be the ultimate warrior to contribute there.

                        If you’re a Timmy with Dex 3 Melee 3 and specialty, then a full excellency decisive against a Cataphract has a hit chance of 48% (The hit that you really want to land to end the battle). A 5/5 with a full excellency bumps that up to roughly 91%. When I play the game, I often like to take part in combat where the odds of me hitting at my absolute best are a little better than 50/50 and not be peanut gallery to the Dawn’s fight. If I was 5/5 I could at least contribute a little more in some fashion. I do not enjoy being told what is essentially “You’re level 3 in fighting skill, but the Dawn is level 15.” I do not mind not having Sword of the Cosmos at the start, but I don’t enjoy being told to be the peanut gallery. The Dawn is still going to be overwhelmingly better than me because he’ll have far more charms, but at least I can try and do something. I enjoy my own freedom to decide whenever this statistical difference should exist or not. Likewise when my players play in my games, I find ways for them to be all directly engaged without relying on a “You must be this tall to ride” metric that involves raw math rather than cool sword lasers.

                        At this point we’re recycling the same argument. Unless we have something new to add here I think we’re done.

                        Originally posted by limaxophobiac View Post
                        I'm just going to chime in and say that given how much focus the exalted in general puts on combat (most of the 'system' chapter, half the charms, half the spells, 90% of all artifacts) and how much time it takes in play, saying 1 person in a group gets to play in their own combat tier and everyone else must comparatively suck would be a complete no-sell. Also in this model does no one but the Night or Eclipse get to have 4+ guile etc.?

                        I'd much rather have a game where everyone can meaningfully participate in all the systems. Everyone being a Dex 5 combat ability 5 sorcerer with 5s in a social ability or two while probably going to far in the other direction is still straight up preferable to half the party being practically irrelavant in most scenes.

                        (It's like back in the days of the third edition of another game, sure the books didn't tell you to make an all-caster party, but it was easily the most fun you could have with the system without anyone feeling left out).
                        What I’ve been saying the entire thread.


                        Read my shit at my homebrew topic, 2.5e and 3e material!
                        Play Alchemical's in 3e now, you're welcome.

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Originally posted by Sandact6 View Post
                          You still run into the issues of many abilities having higher prereqs, probably beyond what a player can normally get. More than half the archery charms require Archery 4. Dodge has more, but getting double 9s on a disengage roll is Dodge 4. For a small bonus to a specific roll that should be a much lower minimum (or really just a much better charm in general). Tell you what, you redesign all the charms so they have lower ability minimums and then I wouldn’t mind it. Hell, another poster on the board started with lower abilities caps but removed the ability prereqs altogether and only used Essence. I disagree with his premise, but he had an acceptable compromise.

                          The other is that you write a rule hack where people start off with enforced minimums. If people agree to that, cool. But in the context of myself and the game as a whole? No, I ain’t agreeing with that. Because the ways I have work well for me and my players, and I don’t see a reason to fix what isn’t broken for me. You can use what you want to use, but I've tried it before, didn't like it, and don't want to use it.
                          Well it's broken to Hell and back again for me and my current group, and several other groups I've played with, and many people I've talked to on the forums. There's countless threads with people bringing this up and the only response is the advice to not worry about giving players a fun challenge, but rather go hard on the consequences of their trivial victories. Which is not good advice when for one, you can very easily just focus on the consequences of non-trivial victories, and two, you don't want to learn this enormous complex system to just end up skipping it.

                          Originally posted by Sandact6 View Post
                          There’s nothing stopping me from hunting down the Ring Wraiths and beating them up if I wanted to. If the Ring Wraith’s impaled me on their spirits then I’m making a new character sheet. One allows for the continuation of a story, the other an end to my character's story. This loops back to my philosophy on life: So long as you're not dead you can bounce back.
                          If you get incapped you can bounce back too, later that day even.

                          Originally posted by Sandact6 View Post
                          If you’re a Timmy with Dex 3 Melee 3 and specialty, then a full excellency decisive against a Cataphract has a hit chance of 48% (The hit that you really want to land to end the battle). A 5/5 with a full excellency bumps that up to roughly 91%. When I play the game, I often like to take part in combat where the odds of me hitting at my absolute best are a little better than 50/50 and not be peanut gallery to the Dawn’s fight. If I was 5/5 I could at least contribute a little more in some fashion.
                          That's silly, why would you never benefit from the Cataphract's wound penalties, or onslaught penalties, or prone from smashing, or grapples, or disabling their weapon with a disarm gambit, or poison, or anything like that? Any number of those things in combination won't just drop a cataphract's defense, it'll drop it straight to zero.

                          Originally posted by Sandact6 View Post
                          I do not enjoy being told what is essentially “You’re level 3 in fighting skill, but the Dawn is level 15.” I do not mind not having Sword of the Cosmos at the start, but I don’t enjoy being told to be the peanut gallery. The Dawn is still going to be overwhelmingly better than me because he’ll have far more charms, but at least I can try and do something. I enjoy my own freedom to decide whenever this statistical difference should exist or not. Likewise when my players play in my games, I find ways for them to be all directly engaged without relying on a “You must be this tall to ride” metric that involves raw math rather than cool sword lasers.
                          You're much more in the peanut gallery as a Socialize/Presence 3 Dawn in a social scene than you are as a melee 3 Twilight in a combat. You can smack around and build initiative on withering attacks against just about anything, although not as much as the Dawn will be, use decisive attacks to inflict damage and wound penalties just the same, coordinate with allies against stronger foes, pull off gambits, play any part of the combat game just fine.

                          If you're in a social scene you don't want the Dawn going anywhere near persuade actions. If you screw that up that argument you just made becomes invalid, you need to hit those arguments the first time, or not at all. So the Dawn's best and most tactical course of action in the Social Influence game is to lay back and keep his mouth shut.

                          Originally posted by limaxophobiac View Post
                          I'm just going to chime in and say that given how much focus the exalted in general puts on combat (most of the 'system' chapter, half the charms, half the spells, 90% of all artifacts) and how much time it takes in play, saying 1 person in a group gets to play in their own combat tier and everyone else must comparatively suck would be a complete no-sell. Also in this model does no one but the Night or Eclipse get to have 4+ guile etc.?

                          I'd much rather have a game where everyone can meaningfully participate in all the systems. Everyone being a Dex 5 combat ability 5 sorcerer with 5s in a social ability or two while probably going to far in the other direction is still straight up preferable to half the party being practically irrelavant in most scenes.

                          (It's like back in the days of the third edition of another game, sure the books didn't tell you to make an all-caster party, but it was easily the most fun you could have with the system without anyone feeling left out).
                          If you're using the published enemies, what makes you think you can't contribute? A guy with melee 3 can't meaningfully contribute when the minimum competancy of foes you face is Octavian, no, true, but against the vast majority of what is in the books, you can.

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            Your math is terrible Sandact.

                            3/3 Melee with no specialty is landing that Decisive 95% of the time with a Full Excellency. 98% if one of the Dawn's attacks was Smashing. 99.8% if they spend Willpower.

                            The circumstances of actual play matter.

                            It's like saying a level 10 fighter can't kill a werewolf because they don't have a silver sword... when they will have a silver sword. It's a fundamental misunderstanding of game design.

                            They've got about an 88% chance of hitting the Cat's minions, which is fine. Then a 90+% chance of landing a Decisive hit on the boss.

                            There's no point where the 3/3 character isn't helping in combat.

                            A Circle of 3/3s can take down Octavian. It's absolutely not the case that you need 5/5 to participate in combat.

                            And the same for social scenes.

                            Originally posted by limaxophobiac View Post
                            Also in this model does no one but the Night or Eclipse get to have 4+ guile etc.
                            Tell me the story of your Dawn who is the greatest liar in the world. If it's a good story, you can have Guile 5. If your story is "I spent two bonus points and 1/5/1ed my social stats", then no, you can't have Guile 5.


                            Hi, I'm JohnDoe244. My posts represent my opinions, not facts.

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              Originally posted by JohnDoe244 View Post
                              Tell me the story of your Dawn who is the greatest liar in the world. If it's a good story, you can have Guile 5. If your story is "I spent two bonus points and 1/5/1ed my social stats", then no, you can't have Guile 5.
                              I think that’s why I’d want a scaling system, something other than just a hard cap. Dawn who’s a completely unsurpassed liar is a worthwhile concept to try to keep if you can.

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Originally posted by DrLoveMonkey View Post

                                If you're using the published enemies, what makes you think you can't contribute? A guy with melee 3 can't meaningfully contribute when the minimum competancy of foes you face is Octavian, no, true, but against the vast majority of what is in the books, you can.
                                How is it meaningfull when the dawn is there and could handle it all by himself? Because if enemies don't auto-hit melee 3 dex 2 guy they can't hit him and he almost certainly ignores onslaught.

                                I don't really see the appeal of forcing everyone to be so specialised in their own area of competence that it's barely worth the rest of the circles time showing up when they do their thing.

                                Originally posted by DrLoveMonkey View Post
                                If you're in a social scene you don't want the Dawn going anywhere near persuade actions. If you screw that up that argument you just made becomes invalid, you need to hit those arguments the first time, or not at all. So the Dawn's best and most tactical course of action in the Social Influence game is to lay back and keep his mouth shut.
                                Yes and that is a terrible state of things, where your character should just not show up to a scene. Which is why you should let everyone buy the same dicepools and let them be differentiated by how many cool tricks (charms) they have.
                                Last edited by limaxophobiac; 02-23-2021, 04:24 AM.

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X