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  • Banishing your own summoned demons

    I've got a player who doesn't want her character to have an entourage of demons, but does periodically summon demons to deal with problems. She has just task bound a demon to a task that was pertinent at the time, but is soon will probably regret. Is there any way currently for a sorcerer to banish a demon?



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    Ghosts: A Revision (2nd Edition)
    Masters of the Industrial Elements
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  • #2
    Originally posted by Kyeudo View Post
    I've got a player who doesn't want her character to have an entourage of demons, but does periodically summon demons to deal with problems. She has just task bound a demon to a task that was pertinent at the time, but is soon will probably regret. Is there any way currently for a sorcerer to banish a demon?

    Nope. Once it's out of Malfeas, you've gotta deal with the consequences of letting it out, which include it hanging around for a year, or until the task is complete.

    Of course, you can just kill a demon, and a 1st Circle will almost certainly just die, no special charms needed (even if it did reform due to happening to have a cult or something, it would still do so in Malfeas). Then you're a person who chose to "solve the problem" of a living, feeling being with its own hopes, dreams, etc. hanging around when you found it inconvenient by killing it. But if you're summoning and binding demons in the first place, you're already treating them like things, so the character may be willing to take the next step as well. Up to them!


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    • #3
      The demon in question is a Demon of the Second Circle and the player in question does not like killing demons as a solution. I just remembered there were the banishment spells back in 2nd Edition and didn't know if something similar had been reprinted.




      Dead But Not Gone: Ghosts
      Ghosts: A Revision (2nd Edition)
      Masters of the Industrial Elements
      Upon the Rock of Tradition: The Memorial Exalted
      ​From The Crucible: Crafting As A Struggle

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      • #4
        “I’d really like it if you hoofed it back to Malfeas and hung around there until the time of our contract is done, pretty please?”- Summoner

        “For you m’dear, anything” - Demon with magically enforced Defining Intimacy.

        Probably only works if the desert between Creation and Malfeas is still a thing in 3rd Ed.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Kyeudo View Post
          The demon in question is a Demon of the Second Circle and the player in question does not like killing demons as a solution. I just remembered there were the banishment spells back in 2nd Edition and didn't know if something similar had been reprinted.
          The banishment spells have been removed, and I very much doubt that they'll be making a return. The devs have indicated that they felt that they made exactly this kind of problem too easy to solve. If you summon a demon, you have to be ready for the consequences of an alien being with alien desires and drives to be in Creation for a year, or until it finishes its assigned task.


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          • #6
            They could take the Exorcism thaumaturgy ritual, but that just binds them inside a proxy object for a month and a day.
            Not really the responsible solution but there it is.

            I could see a demon specifically summoned to take bound demons back to Malfeas, but that's not textually supported anywhere.


            Side note, Exorcising Demons is hilariously easy.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Kyeudo View Post
              Is there any way currently for a sorcerer to banish a demon?
              No, and that's intentional.

              That's literally the consequence of summoning demons IC and the OOC narrative purpose of them.


              Hi, I'm JohnDoe244. My posts represent my opinions, not facts.

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              • #8
                I may banishing them is a no go. That said depending on how the task will become a problem it is still possibly solvable. So what's about to go wrong?

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by nalak42 View Post
                  I may banishing them is a no go. That said depending on how the task will become a problem it is still possibly solvable. So what's about to go wrong?
                  It's about to poison a wide swath of land to corral a living swamp back to where it used to be.



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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Kyeudo View Post

                    It's about to poison a wide swath of land to corral a living swamp back to where it used to be.

                    If "poison a wide swath of land to corral that living swamp" wasn't the specific task you gave the demon, you should be able to talk to it, and perhaps persuade it to go about its job in some other, less land-poisoning way. Demons can be influenced via the social system like any other character. Maybe try pitching some way to do the job even faster (possibly with some help from the PCs) than using the land-poisoning scheme - many demons, particularly those of the 2nd Circle and higher, like being in Malfeas, and find Creation irritating or boring. So if it's a demon that thinks that way, you could use the fact that it could go home sooner in a bargain action to get it to do things your way. Or you could offer it something else - if you can figure out what it wants or enjoys, perhaps offer to supply some of that, either while it's doing its task, or after it gets back to Malfeas (you can cast Demon of the 2nd Circle, you can probably do a working and open up a gate to Hell in order to supply whatever you promise).


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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by prototype00 View Post
                      “I’d really like it if you hoofed it back to Malfeas and hung around there until the time of our contract is done, pretty please?”- Summoner

                      “For you m’dear, anything” - Demon with magically enforced Defining Intimacy.

                      Probably only works if the desert between Creation and Malfeas is still a thing in 3rd Ed.
                      Cecylene is probably almost certainly still a part of the cosmology of Hell, but there's a hanging question of how one even gets there.

                      Say you've got Octavian bound in loyalty to you and you command him to return to Malfeas under his own power. Does he know where to go to find a path back there? Do you? If he doesn't, what might he do in pursuit of that information? Perhaps he'll go find some sorcerers and try and get them to give him some insights in his own particular idiom. Assuming he knows where there are any sorcerers to find; perhaps there are other mortals that can also inform him.

                      And sure, you've told him to hoof it, but if we assume social influence works in terms of interpersonal discourse rather than hard coded commands and interpret it through a given demon's personality, perhaps they won't literally do nothing but pursue a path back to Malfeas with all due speed. Their loyalty to you is a Defining Tie, i.e. a thing that is measured against everything that they might do. While they're searching about for a means of returning to Hell, one might expect they'll be thinking a lot about things to do in your service as they go, or noticing opportunities for such as they become apparent during their journey. After all, Second Circle Demons are generally schemers in one form or another, it's in their nature to be calculating and keeping an eye out for an angle. I would think it's not exactly violating the spirit of what you asked them to do for them to take a somewhat truncated path around on their way so that they can achieve both fulfilling your command and acting in loyalty to you in other ways.

                      That's assuming that a way back to Malfeas is within reach for them. I'm of the opinion that demons get very anxious as they pursue tasks with no apparent means of fulfilment, and that makes them very irritable and dangerous. If nothing else, Octavian might reach a point where he doesn't know of any further leads to pursue and gets stuck in one place having violent outbursts while he tries to figure something out.

                      I'm inclined to interpret in these terms because I don't think binding should override a demon's interesting personality or idiosyncrasies and that summoning one entails taking a certain responsibility for what they do, which makes it a bad idea to send them about without supervision. That and generally disliking the sense that more powerful demons can be permanently neutralised by one sentence.

                      I like to think that when it came to Third Circle Demons, popular wisdom was that if they really must be summoned then it was best binding them to a task that could be resolved as quickly as possible and then they depart. Either through experience or conjecture, I could imagine that the Exalted of the Old Realm thought that it was a very bad idea for Ligier to be hanging feeling loyal to you for a year.


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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Kelly Pedersen View Post


                        If "poison a wide swath of land to corral that living swamp" wasn't the specific task you gave the demon, you should be able to talk to it, and perhaps persuade it to go about its job in some other, less land-poisoning way. Demons can be influenced via the social system like any other character. Maybe try pitching some way to do the job even faster (possibly with some help from the PCs) than using the land-poisoning scheme - many demons, particularly those of the 2nd Circle and higher, like being in Malfeas, and find Creation irritating or boring. So if it's a demon that thinks that way, you could use the fact that it could go home sooner in a bargain action to get it to do things your way. Or you could offer it something else - if you can figure out what it wants or enjoys, perhaps offer to supply some of that, either while it's doing its task, or after it gets back to Malfeas (you can cast Demon of the 2nd Circle, you can probably do a working and open up a gate to Hell in order to supply whatever you promise).
                        I've got the exact wording in my notes, but, no, that was not what the task was. The task was to get the swamp back where it was when the series started. The problem is the demon is already pursuing what is probably the fastest course. Also, the task was set while working under assumptions that will shortly prove false - the swamp isn't moving around because of an angry god or elemental.



                        Dead But Not Gone: Ghosts
                        Ghosts: A Revision (2nd Edition)
                        Masters of the Industrial Elements
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                        ​From The Crucible: Crafting As A Struggle

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Isator Levi View Post

                          Cecylene is probably almost certainly still a part of the cosmology of Hell, but there's a hanging question of how one even gets there.

                          Say you've got Octavian bound in loyalty to you and you command him to return to Malfeas under his own power. Does he know where to go to find a path back there? Do you? If he doesn't, what might he do in pursuit of that information? Perhaps he'll go find some sorcerers and try and get them to give him some insights in his own particular idiom. Assuming he knows where there are any sorcerers to find; perhaps there are other mortals that can also inform him.

                          And sure, you've told him to hoof it, but if we assume social influence works in terms of interpersonal discourse rather than hard coded commands and interpret it through a given demon's personality, perhaps they won't literally do nothing but pursue a path back to Malfeas with all due speed. Their loyalty to you is a Defining Tie, i.e. a thing that is measured against everything that they might do. While they're searching about for a means of returning to Hell, one might expect they'll be thinking a lot about things to do in your service as they go, or noticing opportunities for such as they become apparent during their journey. After all, Second Circle Demons are generally schemers in one form or another, it's in their nature to be calculating and keeping an eye out for an angle. I would think it's not exactly violating the spirit of what you asked them to do for them to take a somewhat truncated path around on their way so that they can achieve both fulfilling your command and acting in loyalty to you in other ways.

                          That's assuming that a way back to Malfeas is within reach for them. I'm of the opinion that demons get very anxious as they pursue tasks with no apparent means of fulfilment, and that makes them very irritable and dangerous. If nothing else, Octavian might reach a point where he doesn't know of any further leads to pursue and gets stuck in one place having violent outbursts while he tries to figure something out.

                          I'm inclined to interpret in these terms because I don't think binding should override a demon's interesting personality or idiosyncrasies and that summoning one entails taking a certain responsibility for what they do, which makes it a bad idea to send them about without supervision. That and generally disliking the sense that more powerful demons can be permanently neutralised by one sentence.

                          I like to think that when it came to Third Circle Demons, popular wisdom was that if they really must be summoned then it was best binding them to a task that could be resolved as quickly as possible and then they depart. Either through experience or conjecture, I could imagine that the Exalted of the Old Realm thought that it was a very bad idea for Ligier to be hanging feeling loyal to you for a year.
                          I think lorewise in some cases Cecylene is involved in the summoning process (probably via some terms in the articles of surrender or whatnot).

                          IIRC the demon starts his journey through the desert five days ahead of the summoning (how? You’re asking the wrong question here) and arrives just as the summoning ends via the desert.

                          It may be that no demon knows how to find the desert, but Cecylene certainly does seem to know how to find them at narratively appropriate junctures, whether your Storyteller wants the desert to show up or prefers the Benny Hill scenarios (but rather than running through doors it’s Octavian collecting Sorceror skulls) that you proposed, well, I leave that to each individual game.
                          Last edited by prototype00; 03-04-2021, 12:00 AM.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Kyeudo View Post
                            The task was to get the swamp back where it was when the series started. The problem is the demon is already pursuing what is probably the fastest course.
                            Well, then my other suggestion, of finding out something else it wants or needs, and bargaining using that, seems like it might be a fruitful avenue.

                            Also, while you might (and should!) have moral qualms about just killing a demon you've summoned because you're no longer happy with the job it's going to do, you might want to consider the fact that 2nd Circle demons, unless killed with Ghost-Eating Technique or an equivalent, aren't permanently dead. The souls and sub-souls of the Yozis, unlike the demons of the First Circle, will eventually reform in Malfeas.


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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Kyeudo View Post
                              It's about to poison a wide swath of land to corral a living swamp back to where it used to be.
                              Demons follow the spirits of their orders inasmuch as they understand them, so if salting the earth is presumably the next worst thing to this summoner (if not a worse thing) than letting the swamp roll through then she made an especially poor choice of demon if saying so doesn’t elicit a “Whoops, my bad.”

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