Carapace/Shell mobility penalty quesion

[Fredo]

Does Armored Scout‘s Invigoration remove the movement penalty from Carapace/Shell mutation, since it counts as armored soak?

Does Subtlety work with Carapace/Shell? Any ideas how it might work?

[vwllss trnt prncss]

From a strict rules-as-written perspective:
Armored Scout's Invigoration removes the mobility penalty from your armor. Carapace/Shell is not your armor. Therefore it, like many charms that remove your armor's mobility penalty, won't help.
Yes, Subtlety works with any "physically obvious Supernatural Merit". Though, note that strictly speaking your Carapace/Shell merit and your Unusual Hide merit are separate merits, so hiding both would require two purchases of Subtlety.

From a less formal "If I were your ST" perspective:
I'd let Armored Scout's Invigoration remove the penalty. It seems reasonable enough, and it's clearly in line with the intent of the charm. Getting screwed by rules-semantics isn't fun for anyone. I would make you pay more if you wanted to wear other armor too, though.
To make a Carapace/Shell subtle would require some pretty clever explanations. I'd probably be game for whatever you came up with, but I can't think of much beyond "it's under your normal-looking skin, and oh boy is your anatomy weird under there".

[JohnDoe244]

Neomah extrude a nautilus shell by breathing fire. I might allow something similar for a subtle carapace.

I almost certainly wouldn't let a Solar have unusual hide and carapace though.

[Fredo]

I almost certainly wouldn't let a Solar have unusual hide and carapace though.

What about a Lunar?

[prototype00]

The Carapace merit is *in their book* so it would not make sense if a Lunar could not take it.

But if you want to take the merit as your Tell Mutation I am less clear how that would work, if you attach it to Carapace (and spend like half your BP allotment on it at character creation) would it transfer to other forms?

Probably, but I’m not 100% sure.

[JohnDoe244]

What about a Lunar?

I'd let a Lunar take carapace and unusual hide. They an even have both as their Tell. But it has to fit -- you have to be an animal/chimera with a carapace. (Which probably rules out Subtle.)

Depending on the Session 0 expectations for combat and the concept of your Lunar, I might veto it. But I honestly don't think the combination is that bad on a Lunar.

[Gayo]

The Carapace merit is *in their book* so it would not make sense if a Lunar could not take it.

But if you want to take the merit as your Tell Mutation I am less clear how that would work, if you attach it to Carapace (and spend like half your BP allotment on it at character creation) would it transfer to other forms?

Probably, but I’m not 100% sure.

You can definitely take Carapace as your Tell, in which case you do have it in all forms, though I think your ST would be justified in saying that you use the higher of your natural + Carapace soak or the form's, since many animals already have tough-hide-type effects rolled into their soak ratings. The fact that it persists in all forms is a generalized feature of mutations linked to Tells. (Technically I think this is only made explicit with human forms, but it'd be weird if it didn't apply to animal forms, it's just that in those forms you can have "collisions" to adjudicate between similar powers not represented as mutations.) In this context, I'd probably rule that you can take Subtlety but it leaves something visible as a Tell, like a carapace pattern or a metallic sheen or something.

Now, the rules for how this actually works are kind of weird:

A Lunar whose Tell is a physical feature may take a mutation to represent it. Such a Tell can be noticed normally by onlookers, but not the fact that it’s a feature they’ve seen on the Lunar’s other forms; making that connection requires a roll, as above.

So if you take the form of Peleps Joe, you're Peleps Joe but also covered in a chitonous shell, and people will notice the chitonous shell but not think "oh, this must be that Lunar who always has a chitonous shell" unless they make the Tell roll. What's not clear to me is whether they'll think "Wait, Peleps Joe doesn't normally have a chitonous shell! Something weird is going on here;" if so, it kind of limits the usefulness of disguising yourself as specific people unless you assume that there's some sort of rationalization effect. You'll have to ask your ST or the devs for guidance on that one, I think, as it's not clear to me from the book.

The simplest way to do this without all the drama is probably to take a relevant totem with Hybrid Body, then take the E2 charm (Perfected Hybrid Interaction) that lets you pop the carapace in any form for one scene for 4m. That has the downside that you don't get the off-form benefits until E2, but the upside that you don't blow four merit dots on something that severely impedes your shapeshifting.

[JohnDoe244]

I think it's the Riding Hood Factor.

"Why Peleps Joe, what a chintonous shell you have!"
"All the better to protect me from daiklaves my dear."

[prototype00]

You can definitely take Carapace as your Tell, in which case you do have it in all forms, though I think your ST would be justified in saying that you use the higher of your natural + Carapace soak or the form's, since many animals already have tough-hide-type effects rolled into their soak ratings. The fact that it persists in all forms is a generalized feature of mutations linked to Tells. (Technically I think this is only made explicit with human forms, but it'd be weird if it didn't apply to animal forms, it's just that in those forms you can have "collisions" to adjudicate between similar powers not represented as mutations.) In this context, I'd probably rule that you can take Subtlety but it leaves something visible as a Tell, like a carapace pattern or a metallic sheen or something.

By the rules as they stand currently, you get the full benefit of unusual hide and Carapace no matter what form you take if they are your Tell mutations. The profusion of Hippo/Pestletail Soak Beast builds attests to that.

As to subtlety, I think the rules for that also state that people don’t notice unless you do something overt with it. But as you say it’s also the Tell so someone might notice a hint of monstrous form.

How I would rule it:

1. It’s Subtle and they didn’t beat your Tell DC: Completely oblivious.

2. It’s Subtle and they did beat your Tell DC: Hmm, I’ve seen someone with that distinctive bony bracer before but where?

3. It’s not subtle but they did not beat your Tell DC: AAUGH! AAAH! SWEET MERCIFUL DRAGONS!!

4. It’s not subtle and they did beat your Tell DC: AAUGH! AAAH! SWEET MERCIFUL DRAGONS!! Waiiit a minute, didn’t the fat merchant from earlier have these lithoderms...? AAUGH!!!!

[Kelly Pedersen]

So if you take the form of Peleps Joe, you're Peleps Joe but also covered in a chitonous shell, and people will notice the chitonous shell but not think "oh, this must be that Lunar who always has a chitonous shell" unless they make the Tell roll. What's not clear to me is whether they'll think "Wait, Peleps Joe doesn't normally have a chitonous shell! Something weird is going on here;"

They will notice that - a Lunar in disguise as Peleps Joe might have to do some fancy verbal footwork to explain why Joe suddenly acquired such an odd accessory. Fortunately, things like that do happen in Creation, so it's not impossible to spin it. But it definitely makes it trickier to be a quick infiltration Lunar with such an obvious mutation-linked Tell. Or just take Moon's Hidden Face, which lets you give any mutation Subtlety.

[Epee102]

Why...why would you not let a solar take both merits?

[JohnDoe244]

Why...why would you not let a solar take both merits?

These Merits are primarily presented to represent the warping power of the Wyld, and to aid Storytellers in putting together beastfolk, Wyld mutants, or similar characters. It’s very uncommon for individuals with such Merits to experience Solar Exaltation, but not unheard of. Characters can only begin play with supernatural Merits with explicit permission from the Storyteller.

I really don't think Supernatural Merits belong on Solars.

2E turned all your mutations cosmetic on Exalting. 3E has an explicit disclaimer on them saying they're not intended for PCs. Soak is a massive slow-down mechanic for combat. 10 Soak is comparable to the Soak you get from Artifact Heavy Armor. Weird stacking with Solar Charms.

Do you really want to play a Solar who is a Wyld Mutant with a shell? Or are you trying to game +10 Soak?

Because I'm not exactly keen on the first - you're already hunted as a Solar, why do you want to throw Wyld Mutant on that?
And I vehemontly oppose the latter - you're Exalted, you don't need to nickle-and-dime NPC bonuses from other splat-books.

I see some, small, merit to DBs with the combo. If you're playing some kind of outsider, playing up the contrast between being a mutant and being a Prince of the Earth. Small. Maybe if you're a Water Aspect with a nautilus shell and it's not derailing to the game (hard no if you're trying to stack Invulnerable Skin of Bronze and the like on top). Maybe if there's some Earth Aspect rocking Artifact Armor and Earth Dragon Form and your just trying to hit 12 Soak on your Physical Teritary character.
I think it's valid for a Lunar Tell... because it's a Lunar Tell.
There might be some kind of edge case for a Solar with the mutations. The story of an escaped Ysyr, maybe. Or the story of a sorcerer using Workings to try to transcend her humanity. But it'd have to be an interesting concept on a mechanically suboptimal character. If you're trying to sell me a mutant in a hard shell with Dexerity 5, that's a hard no. If you're asking "how can I use my Solar Charms to eliminate all the downsides of this mutation" then that's a hard no.

If you have Charms, regardless of splat, that grant you mutations, then take them through Charms. That's fine. Those are the player-facing avenues for supernatural power you're supposed to use.

[Epee102]

I mean I had a solar PC with four arms and obsidian skin, so I’ll take it as different strokes for different folks. I will say you basically rule out Beastmen solars this way, which might be fine by you.

[Kelly Pedersen]

Yeah, I'd certainly allow a Solar to start with Unusual Hide and Carapace, if their concept justified it - turtle, lobster, or pestletail beast-folk, wyld mutation, experimented on by the terrible sorcerer-lords of Ysyr, whatever makes sense. The supernatural merits only being available with explicit ST permission doesn't mean a Solar character shouldn't have them, it just means they need permission and it should make sense with their background. 5-dot Artifacts have the same text about requiring permission, pretty much, and I doubt many people consider those inappropriate for Solars.

If high soak is a problem, then the solution is to implement some kind of house rule fixing soak in general, not ban specific mutations that grant soak.

[Gayo]

I really don't think Supernatural Merits belong on Solars.

2E turned all your mutations cosmetic on Exalting. 3E has an explicit disclaimer on them saying they're not intended for PCs. Soak is a massive slow-down mechanic for combat. 10 Soak is comparable to the Soak you get from Artifact Heavy Armor. Weird stacking with Solar Charms.

Do you really want to play a Solar who is a Wyld Mutant with a shell? Or are you trying to game +10 Soak?

Because I'm not exactly keen on the first - you're already hunted as a Solar, why do you want to throw Wyld Mutant on that?
And I vehemontly oppose the latter - you're Exalted, you don't need to nickle-and-dime NPC bonuses from other splat-books.

I see some, small, merit to DBs with the combo. If you're playing some kind of outsider, playing up the contrast between being a mutant and being a Prince of the Earth. Small. Maybe if you're a Water Aspect with a nautilus shell and it's not derailing to the game (hard no if you're trying to stack Invulnerable Skin of Bronze and the like on top). Maybe if there's some Earth Aspect rocking Artifact Armor and Earth Dragon Form and your just trying to hit 12 Soak on your Physical Teritary character.
I think it's valid for a Lunar Tell... because it's a Lunar Tell.
There might be some kind of edge case for a Solar with the mutations. The story of an escaped Ysyr, maybe. Or the story of a sorcerer using Workings to try to transcend her humanity. But it'd have to be an interesting concept on a mechanically suboptimal character. If you're trying to sell me a mutant in a hard shell with Dexerity 5, that's a hard no. If you're asking "how can I use my Solar Charms to eliminate all the downsides of this mutation" then that's a hard no.

If you have Charms, regardless of splat, that grant you mutations, then take them through Charms. That's fine. Those are the player-facing avenues for supernatural power you're supposed to use.

The game does allow you to take supernatural merits for Exalted PCs, though -- it notes that it's ultra-rare and that you need explicit ST permission, but it's not, like, "you can't do this", and even this is for thematic reasons, not balance ones. There's not a damn thing you can do with supernatural merits that breaks Solars more than they're already broke. And in terms of thematics, eh, PCs tend to already be pretty rare among the Exalted, and anyone can trivially give themselves supernatural merits with a sorcerous working -- it's an Ambition 2 Terrestrial working, the same as warding a room.

Now the balance consideration is kind of separate. It's not really balanced, but it's not any more imbalanced than Solars already are. No one is going to do this because they want 10 soak, they'll do it because they want 20-30 soak from combining it with heavy artifact armour and maybe also Invulnerable Skin of Bronze. But, like, that's not really any more broken than what a dedicated Resistance Supernal Solar can do natively, and if you put it on someone who was already a dedicated Resistance Supernal it'll make no discernable difference because they were already unkillable.

At that point, sure, the character is functionally immune to any threat that needs to go through soak, but that just runs into the usual considerations subject to power builds, like "keep in mind that if you make a character who can't lose I may just skip fights that don't have something more interesting going on", and "keep in mind that playing a Resistance monster means that fights can last 30 rounds." It's a typical sort of thing you have to deal with in Exalted, rather than an unintended interaction of that power in particular. It's not like a "this wasn't intended to stack with Solar charms and has weird interactions if so" -- anyone with the ability to attune artifacts can get 26 soak this way. (For my part, I'd definitely allow the guy with 30 soak as long as everybody understood and was OK with the implications it had for the game, because it's funny and thematic. I'm certainly not going to run 30 rounds of uneventful ping attacks, but "the guy who is nearly invincible" is valid and interesting thing to play in a Solar game.)