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2E—Devil-Tigers and the Surrender Oaths

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  • 2E—Devil-Tigers and the Surrender Oaths

    I was speculating with a friend tonight about how Infernals will work in 3e when a question occurred to me. What would a Devil-Tiger who survived long enough to reach Essence 10 become? A Yozi, subject to the surrender oaths imposed at the end of the Divine Rebellion? Or a free Primordial?

  • #2
    The answer given in the Broken Winged Crane (where the Charm is published) is "something new".

    An Essence 10 Devil-Tiger is an Essence 10 Devil-Tiger. They are similiar in concept to a free Primodial (probably, assuming they purchased the published Devil-Tiger Charms and didn't innovate their own unique charms to embody their concept).

    They are not bound by the surrender oaths made by others.

    They can't become an extant Yozi because they are forbidden from buying the "(Yozi) Cosmic Principle" charm: it's mutually incompatible with "Triumphant Howl of the Devil-Tiger". Beocming an extant Yozi is the only way a Green Sun Prince can be bound by the yozi surrender oaths. They didn't take the oaths. They are not yozi. The yozi oaths don't bind them - that's the point of them.
    Last edited by JohnDoe244; 03-09-2021, 11:29 AM.


    Hi, I'm JohnDoe244. My posts represent my opinions, not facts.

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    • #3
      Right, I know they can't become a copy/instance of an extant Yozi if they take the Devil-Tiger route. My curiosity was about the extent to which they would be constrained by the surrenders of Malfeas-That-Was as the King of the Primordials and of the other Primordials-who-became-Yozi, whose Charms and Essence formed the foundation of what the Devil-Tiger has become.

      Edit: Like, if I remember right, we know that they'd still be Creatures of Darkness unless they sought and were granted an exemption from the Sun. I'm wondering if that "inheritance" extends to any other metaphysical qualities.
      Last edited by Anshu; 03-09-2021, 08:07 AM.

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      • #4
        I think it's as simple as "you're bound by an oath of you made that oath". If you never personally surrendered to the Army of the Gods or made any promises to stay out of reality forever, then you're set.

        I think even in Second Edition it never got quite so ontological that it lost sight of being a binding personal statement, to the point that it can apply retroactively to an individual who never agreed to it. Nor do I think any one Primordial would have authority to agree on behalf of any others; it's too big a deal, it has to be a burden you take on yourself.

        EDIT: And even if it did, I'd find it perfectly consistent that Malfeas has no such authority over Exalted who used Charms to establish their own identities as metaphysical constants in a manner akin to Primordials.
        Last edited by Isator Levi; 03-09-2021, 08:22 AM.


        I have approximate knowledge of many things.
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        • #5
          Originally posted by Anshu View Post
          Right, I know they can't become a copy/instance of an extant Yozi if they take the Devil-Tiger route. My curiosity was about the extent to which they would be constrained by the surrenders of Malfeas-That-Was as the King of the Primordials and of the other Primordials-who-became-Yozi, whose Charms and Essence formed the foundation of what the Devil-Tiger has become.
          Zero.

          Zero extent.

          ****

          The Yozis do not know what they have wrought. They sought biddable champions wearing gilded collars, gestalt-reflections of their own magnificence. But the Green Sun Princes are more than their makers ever anticipated. Within them sleeps a greater power than the titans’ own: the power to transcend Yozi nature and be reborn. A new era is at hand. In it, Creation will see the birth of new Primordials, backed by the power of Solar Exaltation. The Yozis will see their replacements.

          [...]

          Proving that he is more than merely a gestalt of insane, defeated Primordials, the Infernal sweeps together the broken shards of enlightenment from several Reclamation conspirators and forges them into a new legend all his own. The shinma shudder as a new titan is born

          [...]

          Characters on the Heretical transcendence path are not becoming Yozis—they are something new, something much greater.
          Last edited by JohnDoe244; 03-09-2021, 10:48 AM.


          Hi, I'm JohnDoe244. My posts represent my opinions, not facts.

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          • #6
            Unless the devil tiger immediately turns around and swears fealty to Malfeas, as has been stated, they are not a Primordial meaning they don't even have the archetype of being part of the surrendering party. Add in that the surrender oaths are binding because they're tied to some secret true name stuff or the like (I forget how the book worded it, but they explain as why primordials turning into new entities are still bound despite not being the signatories) which would mean the devil tiger wouldn't be connected either. There was no contingency for what happens if something like a new primordial came into existence under Malfeas/proto-Malfeas' rule let alone something that offshoots from them and is well neither primordial, human, god, rhaksha, ghost, etc.

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            • #7
              Iirc the word from the developers at that time was that a Devil Tiger still maintains a sort of humanity inasmuch as any other Exalt: their body (barring sorcerous transformation, Wyld mutation, or similar (mis)adventure) remains fundamentally human, and their mind and Essence remain flexible enough to never lose the capacity to learn other Primordial charms.

              To truly become a Primordial would require them to die, for their exaltation to pass to another, and for their successor to take on the tree of charms covering Primordial apotheosis from Return of the Scarlet Empress.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Anshu View Post
                Edit: Like, if I remember right, we know that they'd still be Creatures of Darkness unless they sought and were granted an exemption from the Sun. I'm wondering if that "inheritance" extends to any other metaphysical qualities.
                Sorry, missed that.

                The logic here is: "Green Sun Princes are Creatures of Darkness. Devil-Tigers are a type of Green Sun Prince. Devil-Tigers are Creatures of Darkness."

                It is not, explicitly, in text, not: "Yozi are Creatures of Darkness. Devil-Tigers are Yozi."

                Devil-Tigers aren't Yozi. Devil-Tigers are explicitly not Yozi.

                But, worth noting, they are:

                Outside Fate
                Creatures of Darkness
                Exalted
                Living
                Possessing free will

                They are not:

                Creatures of the Void
                Undead
                Yozi
                Demons
                Akuma

                Originally posted by nalak42 View Post
                Unless the devil tiger immediately turns around and swears fealty to Malfeas
                Eh.

                Even then, you'd be bound to obey Malfeas (which might be Mafleas Charm backed, or simply on your honor, or Eclipse Oath sanctified, or what-have-you). You still would not bound by Malfeas's surrender oath (at least, not directly). In practical terms there's probably very little difference between you being bound by the Yozi Surrender Oath and you being bound to a Yozi who orders you to obey the Yozi Surrender Oath, but the metaphysics is probably important if you're including this as a plot point for an Essence 6+ PC.
                Last edited by JohnDoe244; 03-09-2021, 02:20 PM.


                Hi, I'm JohnDoe244. My posts represent my opinions, not facts.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by JohnDoe244 View Post
                  Eh.

                  Even then, you'd be bound to obey Malfeas (which might be Mafleas Charm backed, or simply on your honor, or Eclipse Oath sanctified, or what-have-you). You still would not bound by Malfeas's surrender oath (at least, not directly). In practical terms there's probably very little difference between you being bound by the Yozi Surrender Oath and you being bound to a Yozi who orders you to obey the Yozi Surrender Oath, but the metaphysics is probably important if you're including this as a plot point for an Essence 6+ PC.
                  That's what I mean, unless a devil immediately swears fealty to Malfeas or something they have no ties that can be argued for them to fit into the surrender oaths. They aren't a signatory, they aren't beholden to a signatory, and they aren't in any class of being that might maybe possibly have been listed in the oaths to grandfather them into it.

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                  • #10
                    Malfeas wouldn't stand for some fealty swearing Exalt being bound to Hell. What, you think you're better than him?!


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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by JohnDoe244 View Post
                      The logic here is: "Green Sun Princes are Creatures of Darkness. Devil-Tigers are a type of Green Sun Prince. Devil-Tigers are Creatures of Darkness."

                      It is not, explicitly, in text, not: "Yozi are Creatures of Darkness. Devil-Tigers are Yozi."

                      Devil-Tigers aren't Yozi. Devil-Tigers are explicitly not Yozi.
                      • Creatures of Darkness are things that the Unconquered Sun has decided to hate in a specific way.
                        • He has decided to hate the Yozis in that way.
                          • Therefore, the Yozis are Creatures of Darkness.
                        • The Unconquered Sun does not know that Green Sun Princes exist.
                          • Therefore the Unconquered Sun cannot have decided to hate them in such a way as to make them Creatures of Darkness.
                            • Therefore, if Green Sun Princes are Creatures of Darkness, it is because they are sufficiently spiritually/metaphysically similar to some other kind of Creature of Darkness that the magic applies to them anyway.
                      • Yozis are spiritually/metaphysically defined by their Charms.
                        • The Green Sun Princes wield Yozi Charms.
                          • Therefore, they are spiritually/metaphysically similar to the Yozis.
                            • Therefore, Green Sun Princes are Creatures of Darkness because they are spiritually/metaphysically similar to the Yozis.
                        • Devil-Tigers are a type of Green Sun Prince.
                          • Green Sun Princes are spiritually/metaphysically similar to the Yozis.
                            • Therefore, Devil-Tigers are spiritually/metaphysically similar to the Yozis.
                      Now, I don't actually think a hypothetical Devil-Tiger who reached apotheosis would suddenly be sucked into Malfeas to remain there forevermore, but it seems to me that there's potential for complications in the middle ground between "Go directly to Jail, do not pass Go, do not collect $200" and "You're free to do whatever you want". Like, maybe their subsouls can be summoned and bound?

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                      • #12
                        Similar =/= same. The oath of surrender applies to the Yozis as they signed the oath of surrenders. The same reason you can't summon any of Gaia or Autuochton's souls, note: They didn't sign jack.

                        The Infernal Exalted also didn't sign anything. They're as much Yozis as you utilizing say, arrow frog toxin to kill birds are a frog.


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                        • #13
                          Basically the fallacy you are committing is kind of something like:

                          If something is a creature of darkness, then it is something the Sun hates (CoD -> H)

                          Yozis are creatures of darkness, therefore they are a things the Sun hates. ((Y=CoD)->H)

                          Infernals are also creatures of darkness, therefore they are a thing the Sun hates. ((I=CoD)->H)

                          Therefore metaphysically Infernals = Yozis (I = CoD = Y).

                          The big issue here is that well, a lot of things can be CoD and not be the same category of thing. The above is actually something that I believe is valid, but not sound. (I don't feel like doing the reductio to test it.) And I think it falls apart entirley if you use prepositonal logic.

                          Because why the Sun dislikes the Yozis in particular need not have to also be why Yozi-related things are things he dislikes in particular. A lot of things can be it for being related/tainted/affected by the Yozis without, themselves, being the Yozis. First Circle Demons kind of fit this as they're not part of the soul structure of the Yozi. As would Hellforged behemoths or like...poor shlubs who eat too many candy locusts.

                          Infernals kind of are this. They're disliked becuase generally, they're beings who are clsoe enough to be disliked. Just like there could beings the Sun has never encountered that by their nature just would fit in his category. Some Fair Folk do this for example. They are default not creatures of darkness. Some Unshaped are, and some have Assumptions that make them undead.

                          The other big thing is well, this assumes them being CoD means anything on the surrender oath nature themselves which again, seem to be more like kinds of contracts the Yozis signed and paid in their soul mutilation. The summoning of thier pantheons and their imprisonment in Hell are part of the oaths they swore. A Devil-Tiger swore no such oath, which is kind of the alpha and omega here. They signed nothing, so are obligated to nothing, which is part of their like, thing. Devil-Tigerhood isn't meant to be some trap where suddenly a Solar can start summoning your Intimaices.


                          And stuff.
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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Anshu View Post
                            Now, I don't actually think a hypothetical Devil-Tiger who reached apotheosis would suddenly be sucked into Malfeas to remain there forevermore, but it seems to me that there's potential for complications in the middle ground between "Go directly to Jail, do not pass Go, do not collect $200" and "You're free to do whatever you want". Like, maybe their subsouls can be summoned and bound?
                            If this is fun for you, then please have fun. Don't feel like I'm hating on you. Tear canon out with your teeth and play the game you love.

                            But you're going against the explicit written canon.

                            The point of the Infernal Exalted is that they're free to act in a way that the Yozi aren't. And the Heretical Charms are the capstone on that. Turning round and saying "well, actually, no" feels, to me, like a giant middle finger.

                            "You're free to do whatever you want" is literally the entire point of the splat.

                            If the GSPs are bound by the Yozi surrender oaths... then there's absolutely no point to them.

                            What's the out-of-game niche you're trying to fill here?
                            What's the in-universe reason for them?

                            Now, that said, I like the idea of creating your own Soul Heirachy. And, I don't know if you've seen the Tome of Imps that's blowing up on NSFW Twitter right now, but I really like the idea of letting other folks summon your demons into Creation. Because they're your demons. That's a really fertile story place. I wouldn't be against a Devil-Tiger taking a Charm to let their demons be summoned. Or voluntarily swearing their own surrender oath. Or otherwise changing your nature to be more like a Yozi. But on an individual basis as a choice the Exalt makes for themselves. Not as a side-effect of being a Green Sun Prince.

                            That said, I am hyped for the 3E presentation of Infernals.


                            Hi, I'm JohnDoe244. My posts represent my opinions, not facts.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Anshu View Post
                              • Therefore, Devil-Tigers are spiritually/metaphysically similar to the Yozis.

                              Now, I don't actually think a hypothetical Devil-Tiger who reached apotheosis would suddenly be sucked into Malfeas to remain there forevermore, but it seems to me that there's potential for complications in the middle ground between "Go directly to Jail, do not pass Go, do not collect $200" and "You're free to do whatever you want". Like, maybe their subsouls can be summoned and bound?
                              It does not matter. It's not that the Yozi are bound by surrender oaths. It's that those specific Yozi are bound by them - because they personally swore those oaths.

                              Ebon Dragon, for example, is not bound because he is the Ebon Dragon, or because he is a Yozi. He is bound because the Shadow of the Dragon he was before was made to swear the oath. If, for example, another Ebon Dragon appeared (due to some Infernal learning the Cosmic Principle charm branch), that second instance would also not be bound. As such, Devil Tigers are even less subject to those oaths than that.



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