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  • #16
    Originally posted by GhanjRho View Post


    I'm going to second the statement that that example is more of a Fortitude approach than Finesse (honestly, Cautious/Enduring is a good pair of Fort keywords). One approach that I have seen that might help is that Attributes don't just inform how that task is attempted; they inform what happens if they fail. An example:
    The Circle is asking around a village, seeking information on a McGuffin, with the goal of reaching it before the enemy. A Force approach uses the sheer weight of the Exalt's charisma to make people like them and want to help. They fail because the villagers take offense to this stranger acting like he's already their very best friend, and he doesn't get much more information. A Fortitude approach would be the aforementioned take your time all everyone method, and failure might result in the enemy getting a head start.
    Also, to compensate for not using stunts, have you considered just giving every roll the stunt bonus? Essence seems to have taken that into account for it's math.
    Yeah, I was going to point this out. This also solves the problem with social influence a little, as those consequences can shape failure there too.

    E.g., on a failed Read Intentions with Force, your target might find you brash and obvious in trying to obtain information about them. If it was Finesse, they might find you slippery or manipulative.

    There may be better descriptions for these Attributes, but I've not yet had my coffee.


    Writer, publisher, performer
    Mostly he/his, sometimes she/her IRL https://adam-lowe.com

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    • #17
      Originally posted by GhanjRho View Post


      I'm going to second the statement that that example is more of a Fortitude approach than Finesse (honestly, Cautious/Enduring is a good pair of Fort keywords). One approach that I have seen that might help is that Attributes don't just inform how that task is attempted; they inform what happens if they fail. An example:
      The Circle is asking around a village, seeking information on a McGuffin, with the goal of reaching it before the enemy. A Force approach uses the sheer weight of the Exalt's charisma to make people like them and want to help. They fail because the villagers take offense to this stranger acting like he's already their very best friend, and he doesn't get much more information. A Fortitude approach would be the aforementioned take your time all everyone method, and failure might result in the enemy getting a head start.
      Also, to compensate for not using stunts, have you considered just giving every roll the stunt bonus? Essence seems to have taken that into account for it's math.
      We're going to roll everything at +2, it's probably the best idea. Second game Wednesday night !


      My homebrew (Leave comments if you want to help improve) : A quick recap of all the pools and stats for Quick Exalted 3E characters

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      • #18
        The second game went fine. It was basically a huge dramatic scene on 2 parts : Dramatic action scene on the first part, Combat scene on the second part.

        I think the system overall works fine for Dramatic action scenes, though there are still some things that are a bit annoying. For example, suppose you want to describe a character in a house on fire that tries to save other characters. It seems fine for a Venture on 2-3 obstacles, and since the house is on fire you would take 1 environmental hazard roll per round. So RAW this can make for a 4-6 rolls to do the "I'm saving people in a fire house scene", which is a bit much. I think Environemental hazards are a bit of a chore, just as in 3e.

        Concerning combat, we finally tested in more details the system. My first remark is that I think the system can go quickly, but you need some practice to successfully do it. One of the reasons reason is obviously the edition of the manuscripts. Grapple rules are somewhere annoying to find, Battlegroup rules are divided in like 3 different sections, etc ... It's not as bad as 3e but I'd say it's still present, particularly for the ST.
        As underlined by some people on this thread, there is a bit of a Strange feeling of Withering only affecting power. Some actions do indeed feel weightless, because you roll 15 dices for a withering on a charge epic attack and the only thing happening is you gain +3 power.
        Regarding some of the complexity of the game, there is less than before but there are still things that can take a bit of time. Environmental rolls during fights because of Aura DB or elementals, multiple attacks with varying bonuses from Battlegroups (Commanding them benefit from size, but when they attack on their own they don't have size bonus for example), accounting for the Charms and modifiers on Withering attacks seems way heavier than the expected result.
        I think Battlegroups are way stronger in this edition than before. They generate massive Power by just being (4-5 OW on size 3+, which is what you can expect from a good Withering attack/build power action, except it's automatic). I'm honestly wondering if BG should not just gain their power automatically each round without rolling because they take a bit of time to do and there is a good chance they won't generate as much as their overwhelming passed Size 3 anyway.
        I had some bad luck but it's not really on the game (0 successes on 13 dices, 3 successes on 14 dices). It was annoying but at least you get OW which is not too bad.
        I tend to notice that players, because they are a bit more optimised than PC I would say, can be very efficient. One of my players do build power only, and with Excellency he easily throws 16+ dices in, which can quickly result into 8+ successes against difficulty 3, on the 2 successive games he generated 6-7 power on a turn, giving them to the guy with Artefact weapons and on turn 2 they often do attack with 10 power + Double 9 on damage + 2-3 automatic damage from weapon that can be devastating (did 13 dmg to my NPC on beginning of turn 2, and remember that the NPC had no way to reduce their power since it's done through Build Power actions). Comparing this to a "good" enemy that will have an attack pool of 12 or 14 against Defense 5 of the players and you quickly only generate 2 Power only per turn, which feels kinda slow. I think it's a case of "don't hesitate to pump your NPC's because the PC's can be that good"

        Overall the combat feels a bit slow, but I think it's in part due to our lack of the mastery of the system. We basically did 2 full turns in 1 hour, accounting for 3 PC, 1 BG for the PC, and 2 NPC's and 1 BG for the NPC. I'd be happy to do 4 turns in the same timeframe on my next games to experience better the consequences of attacks and possibly reversal of fates of the PCs
        Last edited by Chausse; 07-08-2021, 07:02 AM.


        My homebrew (Leave comments if you want to help improve) : A quick recap of all the pools and stats for Quick Exalted 3E characters

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Chausse View Post
          I think Battlegroups are way stronger in this edition than before. They generate massive Power by just being (4-5 OW on size 3+, which is what you can expect from a good Withering attack/build power action, except it's automatic). I'm honestly wondering if BG should not just gain their power automatically each round without rolling because they take a bit of time to do and there is a good chance they won't generate as much as their overwhelming passed Size 3 anyway.
          That actually sounds like a good houserule for efficiency's sake. When battlegroups take the withering attack action, they skip rolling and simply generate power equal to their overwhelming value. I'd have to look back at battlegroup rules, but I might also let them give that power to a commander as a way to help powerful characters fighting with a horde of underlings see a bit more action from teamwork compared to the PCs who, as you noted, can easily synergize to great effect.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Whiskey Jack View Post
            That actually sounds like a good houserule for efficiency's sake. When battlegroups take the withering attack action, they skip rolling and simply generate power equal to their overwhelming value. I'd have to look back at battlegroup rules, but I might also let them give that power to a commander as a way to help powerful characters fighting with a horde of underlings see a bit more action from teamwork compared to the PCs who, as you noted, can easily synergize to great effect.
            Yeah I think they wanted to keep the idea of managing mechanically BG's in more or less the same way than in 3e but I think from a lot of perspective it would gain to be "automatic" since it kinda draws the attention away from the important characters, and there are a lot of mechanical things involved in them


            My homebrew (Leave comments if you want to help improve) : A quick recap of all the pools and stats for Quick Exalted 3E characters

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            • #21
              Tbh, Battle Groups attacking the PCs and... simply getting 3 Power and nothing else happening, seems really dull. If it did something else as well, sure.



              STing Bronze Age Exalted

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              • #22
                Originally posted by The Wizard of Oz View Post
                Tbh, Battle Groups attacking the PCs and... simply getting 3 Power and nothing else happening, seems really dull. If it did something else as well, sure.
                Could just give power to the Commander or something. I mean that's basically what they already do, except you have to manage 3 Qualities to obtain this result. I'd honestly prefer drawing away the mechanical attention from them at this point, since they have a lot of things to manage already and are not as important PC or NPC's.

                We have done one or 2 sessions since last time and it went really great for me as a ST, so I'll try to put another post here.

                I've noticed with a friend that Hardness seems really useless, and we found someone else who already commented it (on the Discord I think ? Idk where he found this) :

                "So, after a few combats in essence, I've decided that I don't understand what hardness adds to the game. Because of the way soak interacts with damage and the amount mundane light armor adds, there's very little incentive to perform a decisive attack with less than 6 power. So the average behavior ends up the same either way.

                Additionally, I didn't really like tracking coordinated attack penalties. There was also some confusion on their tracking, which lead to the group settling on -1 per withering attack instead of the written -([withering attacks] - 1), reset each round.

                It also got in the way when one of the players wanted to use the butterflies/raptor spell for the environmental effect and didn't care about damaging the target. Yeah, that one is easy to house rule "target the ground's 1 hardness," but it still was disruptive.

                I can foresee a meaningful use of hardness with the essence 9 and 10 antagonists, but that could easily be replaced with a quality that says "the opposition must do 2 or 3 withering attacks before the character can be targeted by a decisive attack, reset after a decisive attack."

                I could also see it used as guidance on when decisive attacks should occur to avoid the zero damage issue. But coordinated attacks destroy that potential utility. Community consensus seems to be that gambits ignore hardness, so there's no utility there.

                Overall, hardness didn't add anything that I valued as a player or as an ST and created a bunch of extra tracking."


                My homebrew (Leave comments if you want to help improve) : A quick recap of all the pools and stats for Quick Exalted 3E characters

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Chausse View Post

                  Yeah I think they wanted to keep the idea of managing mechanically BG's in more or less the same way than in 3e but I think from a lot of perspective it would gain to be "automatic" since it kinda draws the attention away from the important characters, and there are a lot of mechanical things involved in them

                  I think the direct assessment of mechanics is up to the individual. Someone prefers more complex mechanics, while others prefer casual things.

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                  • #24
                    I don't really know much about Essence; is the combat notably streamlined and are the charm trees trimmed down?

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Chausse View Post

                      Could just give power to the Commander or something. I mean that's basically what they already do, except you have to manage 3 Qualities to obtain this result. I'd honestly prefer drawing away the mechanical attention from them at this point, since they have a lot of things to manage already and are not as important PC or NPC's.

                      We have done one or 2 sessions since last time and it went really great for me as a ST, so I'll try to put another post here.

                      I've noticed with a friend that Hardness seems really useless, and we found someone else who already commented it (on the Discord I think ? Idk where he found this) :

                      "So, after a few combats in essence, I've decided that I don't understand what hardness adds to the game. Because of the way soak interacts with damage and the amount mundane light armor adds, there's very little incentive to perform a decisive attack with less than 6 power. So the average behavior ends up the same either way.

                      Additionally, I didn't really like tracking coordinated attack penalties. There was also some confusion on their tracking, which lead to the group settling on -1 per withering attack instead of the written -([withering attacks] - 1), reset each round.

                      It also got in the way when one of the players wanted to use the butterflies/raptor spell for the environmental effect and didn't care about damaging the target. Yeah, that one is easy to house rule "target the ground's 1 hardness," but it still was disruptive.

                      I can foresee a meaningful use of hardness with the essence 9 and 10 antagonists, but that could easily be replaced with a quality that says "the opposition must do 2 or 3 withering attacks before the character can be targeted by a decisive attack, reset after a decisive attack."

                      I could also see it used as guidance on when decisive attacks should occur to avoid the zero damage issue. But coordinated attacks destroy that potential utility. Community consensus seems to be that gambits ignore hardness, so there's no utility there.

                      Overall, hardness didn't add anything that I valued as a player or as an ST and created a bunch of extra tracking."
                      Interesting thoughts, thank you.


                      Writer, publisher, performer
                      Mostly he/his, sometimes she/her IRL https://adam-lowe.com

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Solar View Post
                        I don't really know much about Essence; is the combat notably streamlined and are the charm trees trimmed down?
                        Charm trees have been pruned down to shrubbery.

                        Charms with charm prerequisites are in the minority, except for the martial arts styles. Each of these a chain of three to four charms.

                        Most "treeing" is through modes ; some of which require repurchase, others granted on meeting their separate prerequisites.
                        .
                        Last edited by Greyman; 07-28-2021, 04:26 AM.

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                        • #27
                          I'm not gonna lie, I'm probably still going to hack a simpler combat system for my table. But I love what they've done with Charms and pretty much everything else.


                          Writer, publisher, performer
                          Mostly he/his, sometimes she/her IRL https://adam-lowe.com

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                          • #28
                            My big issue with the withering attacks and Power system is that they feel like wasted time now. I can understand the idea of what they represent in Essence, and the abstract concept that your Power represents your opponent being driven back, but it feels unsatisfying when there's no actual mechanical effect for being hit by withering attacks. Really, it just feels like everyone taking turns rolling initiative dice until someone gets enough total successes to attempt an actual attack. It doesn't have fun things like crashes and 3e-style clashes and stuff.

                            But it still slows the game down and complicates things. It feels like the game would just be better without Power. Just have direct attacks against health like in the older editions and maybe give more health or tone down damage so people aren't getting splattered on the first round. But with withering attacks and Build Power being integral to the combat system, it feels like you'd have to overhaul the whole thing and many of the combat charms to make that work. (On the other hand, now that I think about it, there really aren't that many combat charms in the first place. Hmmm. It might be doable.)

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Zeea View Post
                              My big issue with the withering attacks and Power system is that they feel like wasted time now. I can understand the idea of what they represent in Essence, and the abstract concept that your Power represents your opponent being driven back, but it feels unsatisfying when there's no actual mechanical effect for being hit by withering attacks. Really, it just feels like everyone taking turns rolling initiative dice until someone gets enough total successes to attempt an actual attack. It doesn't have fun things like crashes and 3e-style clashes and stuff.

                              But it still slows the game down and complicates things. It feels like the game would just be better without Power. Just have direct attacks against health like in the older editions and maybe give more health or tone down damage so people aren't getting splattered on the first round. But with withering attacks and Build Power being integral to the combat system, it feels like you'd have to overhaul the whole thing and many of the combat charms to make that work. (On the other hand, now that I think about it, there really aren't that many combat charms in the first place. Hmmm. It might be doable.)
                              I wouldn't go that far. It's hard to avoid the death spiral that wound penalties create if people can just directly attack health levels without making significant changes to the way health/damage works. I think that, if you wanted a system where withering attacks felt more consequential, I might do something like this instead;
                              1. Everyone starts at power 10 (or maybe this depends on their join battle roll . . . that's something to tweak if you go further with this idea)
                              2. New Hardness (maybe call it Poise to differentiate for this new system) is calculated as 10- (old) Hardness
                              3. Withering attacks against a target subtract from their power.
                              4. You can't make a decisive attack against a character until you drop their power beneath their poise.
                              5. Withering attacks work as normal except they only damage the opponent's power.
                              6. Build power actions work as normal. they only build power.
                              This system adds a bit of complexity to combat. Build power actions and withering attacks now serve distinctly different purposes. This would be a pretty drastic paradigm shift, though. Personally, I don't think the game needs it. Yes, withering attacks feel a bit like swinging a wiffle bat . . . but honestly, no more than HP feels like in most games, which is exactly where you get to if you start inflating peoples health levels to avoid the immediate death spiral effect. I'm only having my first test games now, but between overwhelming values and the efficiency of build power actions to support allies, I think you should be able to build power relatively quickly to launch decisive attacks frequently.

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Whiskey Jack View Post
                                This would be a pretty drastic paradigm shift, though. Personally, I don't think the game needs it. Yes, withering attacks feel a bit like swinging a wiffle bat . . . but honestly, no more than HP feels like in most games, which is exactly where you get to if you start inflating peoples health levels to avoid the immediate death spiral effect.
                                In my opinion, Exalted 3e had probably the best combat system I've seen in an RPG. It has cases where the numbers felt off, and lots of complexity, some of it needless, but at a fundamental level it's much more fun than basically every form of combat I've played an RPG with. The degree to which there are dramatic back-and-forths, and you feel like you interact with the enemy, and you don't know what's going to happen over the next turn surpass basically every RPG I've seen.
                                Going from that to "not worse than most games" feels like a large downgrade.

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