The Mask of Winters and Ma-Ha Suchi Playing Apocalypse Chicken

[Ranger_Lord]

So we all pretty much know what happens if Ma-Ha Suchi invades the Scavenger Lands before the Mask of Winters: the Mask cackles maniacally and swoops in to finish off both sides once they’ve sufficiently exhausted each other.

But what the hell does Ma-Ha Suchi do if the MoW invades first? Preemptively conquer territory before the Mask of Winters can get to it? Do the same thing the Mask of Winters would? Or, dare I suggest it, try a Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact with a Deathlord?

[prototype00]

Hmm, technically Ma-Ha-Suchi doesn't have anything, per-se, against the Mask of Winters.

And correct me if I am wrong, he also doesn't technically view The Scavenger Lands (TM) as something he wants/needs right this instant.

Ma Ha Suchi is an Old Guard of the Forever War with The Realm. For probably more than a thousand years, he has wanted, more than anything, to mount Dragonblooded Heads on pikes. Canny old goat that he is, (or at least I would in my much more limited tactical know-how), I would imagine he would influence the path of the Mask of Winter's torrent of war such that it gouges out a large section of The Realm's satrapies in the region (or maybe target Lookshy first)? Pick up a couple of useful pieces and all that? If he could trick a Legion/Lookshy (have you seen the Lunar charmset's penchant for straight dickery by the way?) or two into coming and throwing down with the Mask, so much the better.

[blackwingedheaven]

Hmm, technically Ma-Ha-Suchi doesn't have anything, per-se, against the Mask of Winters.

Really, this becomes a good opportunity for them to sign a mutual non-aggression treaty with the Mask of Winters tearing up the Scavenger Lands, while Ma-Ha-Suchi rips apart the few Realm holdings in the region and turns his hungry gaze to the west.

[prototype00]

Really, this becomes a good opportunity for them to sign a mutual non-aggression treaty with the Mask of Winters tearing up the Scavenger Lands, while Ma-Ha-Suchi rips apart the few Realm holdings in the region and turns his hungry gaze to the west.

I mean, Anja would probably be pissed, since she is from Thorns and there is probably an interesting story as she works to undermine any potential agreement, but the Ex3 Lunar’s book is quite clear about the kind of relationship she and Ma Ha Suchi have and it is more or less purely transactional, rather than Shahan Ya and follower.

[AnubisXy]

I think there are lots of directions you could take something like this for your game. It's easy to imagine Ma-Ha-Suchi coming to an accord with the Mask of Winters with both of them carving up the Scavenger Lands between them. But you could also decide that Ma-Ha-Suchi would not be terribly eager to see the Scavenger Lands implode into a massive Shadowland and, while he wouldn't ally with the Scavenger Lands, he might try to sabotage the Mask of Winter's invasion to the best of his ability to prevent that from happening.

If you're running an Abyssal game in which the players are Abyssals of the Mask of Winters then setting up diplomatic negotations with Ma-Ha-Suchi to make him an ally would be an awesome story idea. On the other hand if the players are part of the Scavenger Lands then having Ma-Ha-Suchi show up to surprise everyone by assisting in the fight against the Mask of Winters could be cool as well.

[prototype00]

I think we are missing the obvious answer to the question of “What course of action would Ma Ha Suchi pursue?”

The answer is: “Whatever would piss Raksi off the fastest.”

Edit: On a tangent, is there not an off hand possibility that the oldest Elder Lunars might… recognize… some of the Deathlords? I mean since 3e is moving away from the black and white morality we saw in previous editions and more towards a realpolitik of power kind of narrative, imagine if I, an Elder Lunar, saw Larquen Quen, who distinctly has never tried to genocide me and all my kind, and who I might have had cordial relations with at some point, would I not try to hear him out, even if he has taken up with the mad powers of Oblivion?

I mean if the Silver Prince can build a society that elevates the living and the dead, why not something similar with Masks in the Scavenger Lands?

… Said Smiling Rat as he smiled…

[AnubisXy]

In the First Edition Lunars book Ma-Ha-Suchi specifically recognized that the Mask of Winters was the ghost of Larquen Quen as the Mask of Winters had used banners and insignias of Larquen Quen during his invasion of Thorns. The 1st edition Abyssals book had a moment where it noted other Deathlords were not thrilled about MoW doing that because people in Creation might start putting two and two together and realize that the Deathlords were the ghosts of ancient Solars and that was a secret the Deathlords didn't want to see get out. But unlike with Princess Magnificent the, Malfeans didn't seem upset about the MoW doing it, so the other Deathlords just had to deal with it.

Who knows how all of that will have gone down in 3rd edition though.

[vampire hunter D]

Really, this becomes a good opportunity for them to sign a mutual non-aggression treaty with the Mask of Winters tearing up the Scavenger Lands, while Ma-Ha-Suchi rips apart the few Realm holdings in the region and turns his hungry gaze to the west.

Having flashbacks to Hitler and Stalin doing this....

[Isator Levi]

But what the hell does Ma-Ha Suchi do if the MoW invades first? Preemptively conquer territory before the Mask of Winters can get to it?

Ma-Ha-Suchi currently lacks the resources for conquest. With the people he can currently exert influence over, he's in a far better position to conduct high speed raids to disrupt supply lines and undermine enemy communications. You don't conquer territory, you increase the hassle of an enemy effectively administering and utilising the territory that they have taken.

The Lunar's personal skills would also be well suited to locating people of influence within the Mask's new territories and facilitating unity between them as well as galvanizing their own resistance. Let them be the face of any overt and open opposition, drawing Abyssal armies to the field while his Chante-Sa raiders harass them from the sidelines.

At the same time, Ma-Ha-Suchi is going to be an expert at insinuating himself into the hierarchies of an enemy organisation and tearing apart their cohesion from within through all kinds of misdirects, confused messages, encouragement of ambitions and rivalries, and elaborate deceptions.

[Ranger_Lord]

Okay, so, none of these answers made a lick of sense to me, but my 3e Lunars book just came in today so I popped that biz open and read the Ma-Ha Suchi section.

These answers make a lot more sense now that I know that it seems like Ma-Ha Suchi is no longer under the “cities are abominations, towns are bad, villages are on thin fucking ice” school of thought he had in 2e.

I, for one, very much like this change.

[Ranger_Lord]

(Duplicate post)

[Isator Levi]

Okay, so, none of these answers made a lick of sense to me, but my 3e Lunars book just came in today so I popped that biz open and read the Ma-Ha Suchi section.

He indeed gets two sections. One describing him as a Lunar shahan-ya, the other as the leader of a Dominion.

Well, leader with qualifiers. There are conditions that need to be fulfilled for him to set the agenda for the local society. They're not super difficult to fulfil, but probably best not to destabilise his position with cheating that his allied powers might pick up on.

Although that leads to a matter of how he's also accountable to other agendas who might have different attitudes towards making trouble with particularly dangerous powers abroad.

[prototype00]

Yet another small technical point of change between 1e/2e and 3e Lunars.

Lunar’s are the second best Necromancers in all of Creation currently, on par with the returning Solars at their height (both could access 2nd Circle Necromancy) and second only to the Abyssal Exalted.

They were also the premier Necromancers in Creation from the time of the Usurpation until slightly before current events, a whole chunk of history. Considering that it was one of their best tools, they probably used it a *lot* given the forces arrayed against them.

So, possibly not Ma Ha Such specifically, but Lunars in general are not squeamish about trucking with ghosts, the returned dead and whatnot.

They draw the line at mass Shadowlands (and some don’t, because Shadowlands make lines of supply *suck* for Deeb satrapies) because of GaiaxLuna, but they actually might have more points in common with Deathlords armies than not, especially compared to the Dragonblooded.

[blackwingedheaven]

Having flashbacks to Hitler and Stalin doing this....

That's exactly who I was thinking of when I wrote that. It'll probably turn out just as well in the end too.