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Great Stoat's and the Latch On, special ability?

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  • Great Stoat's and the Latch On, special ability?

    Hello all, I had a quick question? How does the Great Stoat's latch on ability work? Do you need to make a separate attack roll (to hit) after getting 5+ withering damage with its bite? Do you need to make a successful gambit ie 2 or 3 damage successes using your new initiative?

    For effect I was thinking this would be interesting for a Lunar who uses Quicksilver Second Face (Lunar 144), basically sneak up do a stealthed withering attack, this attack lets you do a grapple, which you do then turn into a Hippo or something else for a severely deadly attack with a decisive savaging attack to cripple them for the rest of the fight.

  • #2
    Anyone able to help me with this question?

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    • #3
      Originally posted by Citadel97501 View Post
      Anyone able to help me with this question?
      You wanna give us book and page references?

      [Edit]

      Okay, so we're looking at Fangs at the Gate here.

      As per page 132, you get access to the Great Stoat's Merits in Great Stoat form.

      The Great Stoat and Latch On merit are both on page 365.

      Latch On reads "When dealing 5+ withering damage with a bite, the great stoat can reflexively grapple its target."

      My interpretation is that after you resolve your Withering attack, you may attempt a Grapple Gambit Reflexively. This means rolling to hit again (with a decisive attack) then rolling initiative (with your new, post Withering attack total), getting at least two successes, then spending 3i to confirm the grapple as per the gambit rules in the Core on page 199.

      I would rule that using Latch On is part of the bite attack action, and thus you may not use Quicksilver Second Face. A more permissive ST might allow it based on a liberal interpretation of what constitutes the end of an action. As the text reads "when" (not after), I don't think that's an interpretation supported by RAW, but you could ask the devs about RAI.
      Last edited by JohnDoe244; 08-29-2021, 05:38 PM.


      Hi, I'm JohnDoe244. My posts represent my opinions, not facts.

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      • #4
        OK thank you for your help, that is pretty much what I was thinking as well. Although mainly my idea was using the Quicksilver Second Face on the savaging attack after you have successfully grappled while in the Great Stoat form. Page 199 for grapples, Stoat on page 132,

        Example:
        Bob in Stoat form...with a 10 dice pool for attack rolls. (With lets say 3 initiative)
        -Attacks with a withering bite, doing 5 damage. (8 initiative now)
        -This triggers Latch On (365 Lunar Book), so you make a 10 dice decisive gambit attack roll, hitting...now you roll your 8 damage getting 3 successes...this triggers a savaging attack. (5 initiative now due to Gambit rules)
        -Turn into a Hippo reflexively, now do a decisive savaging attack. This is a 10 dice attack using your attribute and skill, with an average of 5 successes with no defense value. This rolls 5 damage on average doing 2.
        -This triggers the Hippo's Bone Crunching Bite ( 364 lunar book) applying a -5 to all of there strength and dexterity pools.

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        • #5
          Again, the rules as written are ambiguous due to mixing system terms with natural language.

          But the grapple rules (Core p201) state "During each turn in which the grappler maintains the clinch, including the turn on which she initiates it, she must choose to apply one of the following effects". A savaging attack is an effect of your grapple: the control roll doesn't mark the end of your action, you are still mid-action and therefore cannot change forms.

          I would consider the savaging attack an effect of the grapple. Just as you can't take switch forms in between rolling to hit with the grapple and rolling to confirm the grapple, I wouldn't allow switching forms between confirming the grapple and rolling damage on the savage.

          You could do a withering savage, then reflexively shift to hippo form ready for next turn.

          A more permissive ST might rule otherwise. I have no idea of the authorial intent.


          Hi, I'm JohnDoe244. My posts represent my opinions, not facts.

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