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  • Ghosthead
    replied
    One other random thought about this; what would really sell me much more on this show, whether it was live action or whether it was animated, whether focused on a single scenario or much episodic, more than anything, would be the involvement of the people who formed the central ideas of Exalted and who continue to work with it - GCG, JM, EM, JV and all the rest. I guess a lot of the conversation about media sort of encourages us to think of works as "properties" that are totally alienated from their creators' labor, but at root, if we're trying to make sure something is really true to the core ideas and its substance, and not just the surface aesthetics, contact with the core creators, involving the people who made those creative choices is really important!

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  • JohnDoe244
    replied
    Originally posted by Accelerator View Post
    Is avatar the last Airbender considered mature here?
    I'd say probably not?

    The Fire Nation is an evil empire of the cackling evil kind. It's feats aren't worse than (say) the British Empire, but the attitudes of the characters are. We see teenage heroes grapple with their first love... who then turns into the moon (which, admittedly, is rough, buddy). Our heroes save the day not with sacrifice and guerilla tactics but with the power of friendship and being the chosen one.

    Even things like the oppression of the other nations and the genocide of the Air tribe are background elements. We see the Water tribe oppressed once, on screen, then the heroes leave home to save the world. Which they do. As teenagers. Helping the preteen messiah.

    Nothing bad happens to the characters. Getting killed means you get brought back to life even stronger. Being imprisoned makes you swole. Being banished means you get to learn from a dragon.

    Each episode is self-contained. Introduction, conflict, heroes win, credits roll.

    It has mature elements, but isn't a mature show.

    Legend of Korra (is a much worse show that's really inconsistent in tone but) is more mature. The villains seem more like real people. The losses hit harder and have lasting effects. We see the generational impact of Avatar's heroes on the world. Our favourites aren't all alive and well, smoking pipes on the porch and playing with their grandkids -- they're dead. Life happens.
    Last edited by JohnDoe244; 09-13-2021, 04:16 PM.

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  • Accelerator
    replied
    Is avatar the last Airbender considered mature here?

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  • JohnDoe244
    replied
    Originally posted by Accelerator View Post
    So.... what you're saying is that we need something like Game of Thrones? But with less tastelessness?
    Less?

    Oh, alright, fine! Less tastelessness. Jeez.

    But yeah, basically. Exalted is about... well it's about a lot of things. But primarily it's about the Vision of Bronze and the Vision of Gold. It's about an evil empire that commits genocide and enforces its state religion on the world to keep it from being destroyed. It's about divine rebels who bring the hope of a better future, but who once brought the world to its knees. Its a story of certainty being weighed against hope. Of power being balanced against subtly. About human passions and godlike power.

    That strikes me as a sweeping epic. As a show that explores human nature instead of casting a veil over it. A medium to confront and challenge, not one to play it safe.

    The (much maligned) adventure module, Under the Rose, presents the PCs with a closing moral conundrum as to whether they want to destroy the Imperial City. Doing so will condemn countless innocents to death but will cripple the Realm.

    That's the show I want to see.*

    (And if it has gratuitous sex and violence then so much the better.)

    *Only not. Please don't show a Solar destroying the Imperial City on TV.

    *****

    I want to see a show that doesn't try to shock you for the sake of shocking you, but that isn't afraid to hold up a mirror to human history and current events. The Mountain killing Elia Martell's children (etc.) isn't some horrible thing that only happens in fiction. It's absolutely used for tasteless shock value, but it parallels real life crimes like Xenia Borisovna and The Skopinsky Maniac -- it's absolutely something that could happen under GoT's feudal system and it casts a shocking pale on violence against women and children which is still an issue today. Perhaps a little more maturity is warranted, but I think Game of Thrones is a good benchmark.
    Last edited by JohnDoe244; 09-13-2021, 03:56 PM.

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  • Accelerator
    replied
    So.... what you're saying is that we need something like Game of Thrones? But with less tastelessness?

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  • JohnDoe244
    replied
    Originally posted by Lioness View Post
    Only the former is really a plot point that originated in RotSE. The latter has been the obvious intent for why the Scarlet Empress was missing since early 1st edition
    Absolutely agree. It's in the Chapter Fiction for Exalted: The Dragon-Blooded.

    But that's my point. Not that RotSE was bad (I really enjoyed it), but that Exalted fans compulsively consume metaplot.

    But I've said my piece. I don't want to labor the point.

    Originally posted by Mizu View Post
    I honestly think they can do a pretty good exalted story while keeping it PG-13 anyway, it isn't like heroin pissing dinosaurs and Raksi's dinner habits are integral setting info relevant to every single story to be told in the setting.
    Sure, but if you market Exalted as a family friendly show, then you are going to get more backlash from armchair bloggers.

    And, really, do you want Exalted as a PG13 show?

    I think going R is the way to do the universe justice, but, again, it makes it difficult to gain mainstream appeal. Which, again, isn't necessary but it's an obstacle.

    When I think "Exalted", I think of a mature setting. A setting that deals with empire, slavery, genocide, infanticide. A setting which doesn't shy away from sex and drugs. A setting where you summon demons to do your bidding and rip out human hearts to drink the blood of your prey. Mountains of corpses. Eldritch horrors. The "base" assumption is that you are playing a Solar who has to hide from the Wyld Hunt -- how far can you tone down refugee escaping genocide from the government?

    ...

    You could make a PG13 show and call that show "Exalted". I don't think you could make a show about Exalted that's suitable for 13 year olds.

    But, again, I'm really trying to not be a downer and to participate respectfully in this conversation. Please feel free to rebutt my points but I'm gonna mute this thread because I don't want to denigrate this idea... but I sincerely think that this is a bad idea, and it's really hard for me to convey what I mean in a productive manner.

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  • Mizu
    replied

    Scion... would work really well. Onyx Path is an indie company (in the sense that Jack Black is an indie actor). The Scion team has a clear vision, and that vision is fit for TV. It's riding high on the back of American Gods and the MCU. You don't have to compromise the setting to have a show that American and Chinese audiences will lap up (providing the superhero censorship thing doesn't get any worse). Definitely will watch, but not expecting anything groundbreaking.


    Exalted... Exalted... has Raksi serving up human babies at meal times. It has dinosaurs peeing heroin. Exalted has Manacle and Coin. Are you gonna put the game that published Houses of the Bull God on Netflix? The protagonists rip out human hearts and drink the blood before summoning demons. You're going to get the Exalted mythology past the CCP censorship board? You're going to get American, mainstream audiences, to watch a show that put a transman on its lead 3E book (and a black woman front and center before that)? Or you're going to pander with the gameline that pushed out Scroll of Swallowed Darkness? The right and the left will tear this show apart with manufactured outrage.
    Have you read ancient mythology? They got up to some pretty messed up stuff in it, to say the least. If that can be written around then they could certainly do the same for Exalteds less then kid friendly aspects if need be. I honestly think they can do a pretty good exalted story while keeping it PG-13 anyway, it isn't like heroin pissing dinosaurs and Raksi's dinner habits are integral setting info relevant to every single story to be told in the setting. And if they have to work in 'objectionable' content while seeking a PG-13 rating then they can always do the tried and true 'shadows behind a curtain' method of only sort of hinting at things that showing directly on screen would get them slapped with an R rating over. Of course, they could always just go for broke and eat an R rating like Game of Thrones did.





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  • Lioness
    replied
    Originally posted by JohnDoe244 View Post
    You've never played in a game of Exalted where an Akuma Scarlet Empress killed Chejop? You've never had an Exalted game where the yozi are trying to Reclaim Creation, and the plot involves the Ebon Dragon marrying the Scarlet Empress?
    Only the former is really a plot point that originated in RotSE. The latter has been the obvious intent for why the Scarlet Empress was missing since early 1st edition and I think the main thing that made people hold off from telling that story at their own tables was the lack of mechanical support for the 50 missing Solar Exaltations.

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  • nalak42
    replied
    Hmm, well according the Site they're presently planning the story to take place in the East, or at least East of the Blessed Isle depending on how you read "East of the realm", so I mean we've got the Scavenger Lands, 100 Kingdoms, a massive amount of forest, and two of the major territories that belong to ancient and powerful Lunars. (To name a few major set pieces we have a decent enough amount of word count on for this edition.) So some fun angles to approach just from direction, with some other things depending on the more specifics of the direction and how close they want to be to the center. I mean you want to do a psuedo cosmic horror thing, start far enough away that wandering into the border marches is viable.

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  • Synapse
    replied
    Originally posted by DrLoveMonkey View Post

    I think more than half of the 2e campaigns I played were either exactly that or ended up turning into that. Like we were off doing something else at the beginning but eventually you had to deal with the Reclamation.

    Which might just be isolated to you and me BUT the original developers of 3e stated that they were being adamant that the Yozi absolutely could not escape Hell because they got too much feedback that so many games felt they had to deal with it, so I imagine at least many other people had the same issue.
    It was half the reason everyone griped with RotSE's metaplot. Which is also what happened a lot on other wod games.

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  • Heavy Arms
    replied
    3e doesn't stop you from having the Scarlet Empress be an akuma and her from killing Chejop. It doesn't stop you from running a game where she and the Ebon Dragon get hitched in a plot to reclaim Creation. 3e just says that plot isn't going to go the way the Ebon Dragon wants it to go even if he wins.

    The issue with the Reclamation was that it wasn't just a possible future for Exalted. 2e's lore let it boil over into everything so it became the dominant issue of the setting (at least to the players' and GMs' perspectives reading the books), and all of the other plots out there got ignored. Everything important got tied to the Reclamation, even via retcons, to reveal the "true" reasons behind other events. It needed to get cut because it wasn't just some possible "What's the worst case scenario for the near future of the setting?" but a plot hook that spread to be an underlying setting element in late 2e.

    Which is all a fundamentally different issue that having a TV show that doesn't follow the same continuity of the RPG books.

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  • Lindharin
    replied
    Originally posted by JohnDoe244 View Post
    You've never played in a game of Exalted where an Akuma Scarlet Empress killed Chejop? You've never had an Exalted game where the yozi are trying to Reclaim Creation, and the plot involves the Ebon Dragon marrying the Scarlet Empress?
    No, not here either. But I think part of this will come down to how/when/with whom people play the game. I play with a group of friends. We pick and choose what elements of the setting we engage with based on what we like. Even if all of those things were 100% canon, we would just ignore them if they didn't contribute to our game. There are already canon things in the game that we don't like, and so we ignore them and focus on what brings us joy in gaming. And if there are ideas that are not canon, but we personally wanted to explore those ideas anyway, then we would. We have total control over what we bring into our game; its one of the beautiful things about this hobby in my opinion.

    But if I was playing mostly in online pickup games where I don't know the people I'm playing with, and there is some element of the non-canon/fanon metaplot that I don't like, but 90% of them all assume is canon so it keeps coming up over and over, then I can see how that could be frustrating. But at the end of the day, that is still my choice whether I engage in that. And if those 90% are happy to keep the content because they actually like it, then things are working as intended, and it is on me to either accept it, or find another game with people more in tune with my preferences, or run my own where I can leave out the things that bother me so strongly. If the 90% keep including that content even if they don't like it either, then I don't know how to answer that - why keep something they don't like in their imaginary game world? It makes no sense to me, so I have no suggestions there.

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  • DrLoveMonkey
    replied
    Originally posted by JohnDoe244 View Post
    You've never played in a game of Exalted where an Akuma Scarlet Empress killed Chejop? You've never had an Exalted game where the yozi are trying to Reclaim Creation, and the plot involves the Ebon Dragon marrying the Scarlet Empress?
    I think more than half of the 2e campaigns I played were either exactly that or ended up turning into that. Like we were off doing something else at the beginning but eventually you had to deal with the Reclamation.

    Which might just be isolated to you and me BUT the original developers of 3e stated that they were being adamant that the Yozi absolutely could not escape Hell because they got too much feedback that so many games felt they had to deal with it, so I imagine at least many other people had the same issue.

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  • Heavy Arms
    replied
    Whether or not someone's taken the game in that direction for their personal game once doesn't actually prove anything. There's a huge amount of published material for Exalted that exists solely to provide ideas, plots, hooks, and inspiration for stuff to do in your game rather than change the canon "now" of the setting, Stuff that might happen, or could happen, or probably will happen if nobody does anything... because not everyone running the game is going to have a perfect idea on their own and is going to want to ideas.

    Most people that I know that play Exalted regularly are more that happy to acknowledge the line between "stuff that's established as happened in the setting" and "stuff that's there to maybe happen in the future, or get completely ignored because we're not bringing it into play this time."

    And general audiences at this point are very used to the idea that continuity between different media isn't a thing. If people can handle the idea that there's four different Spider-man movie continuities, a few cartoon continuities, a few video game continuities, and more than a few comic book continuities out there to be consumed right now, they can handle Exalted TV show's continuity not being the same as the canon one in the RPG books.

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  • AnubisXy
    replied
    Originally posted by JohnDoe244 View Post
    You've never played in a game of Exalted where an Akuma Scarlet Empress killed Chejop?
    Nope.
    Originally posted by JohnDoe244 View Post
    You've never had an Exalted where the yozi are trying to Reclaim Creation, and the plot involves the Ebon Dragon marrying the Scarlet Empress?
    Nope.

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