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  • marin
    started a topic Exalted TV series in development

    Exalted TV series in development

    Per this tweet from Jenkins & Tate Entertainment, who're co-developing with Paradox, and also developing the Scion TV series.

    This doesn't necessarily mean it'll see the light of day, but still...

  • Yue Ryong
    replied
    For what its worth, I'm hoping for an animated adaption, not so much for worrying about CGI budgets (which have come down a lot) but costuming & location budgets. Doing urban fantasy like Scion with semidecent CGI in a modern setting sounds eminently doable on a TV budget (that probably overlaps with a fair chunk of my normal TV viewing between the various super shows I check out); doing classical antiquity as a fantasy setting? That's a lot bigger ask on a TV budget. Xena/Hercules are probably the only ones I can think of that came anywhere close to being up to standard there & they were massive productions by the end.

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  • Erinys
    replied
    Originally posted by JohnDoe244 View Post
    Ragara Banana in Made-Ups-Ville
    JohnDoe you just made my day.

    Originally posted by Lioness View Post
    Only the former is really a plot point that originated in RotSE. The latter has been the obvious intent for why the Scarlet Empress was missing since early 1st edition and I think the main thing that made people hold off from telling that story at their own tables was the lack of mechanical support for the 50 missing Solar Exaltations.
    Yeah, I'm pretty certain that they were named Ebon Dragon and Scarlet Empress in the first place because they're a shout-out to
    the Ebon Dragon and Scarlet Phoenix in KoTE -- not the other way around. But originally, Erembour was upset because this bride might survive. Implying there's a good chance she's doomed to die.


    Re: Having GCG or current developers involved:
    I have seen adaptations that claimed to be "spiritual adaptations" that actually shat all over the spiritual core of the original, because the people writing the plot either didn't understand what it was about, or didn't care. And on top of that, threw in obvious plot holes to prove their incompetence and/or apathy. Exalted has multiple authors and developers, so there's less of a unified spiritual vision in the first place. But bad adaptation is absolutely still a potential outcome of having no OPP involvement, especially if the risky left-ish elements are aggressively eliminated to appeal to a "wide audience" of white Americans who don't want their comfortable empire-based privilege questioned. Or to appeal to white American show-runners and writers.

    TL;DR: Adaptations that are about money or parody are usually crap. Adaptations that are about art can work IF the show-runners value the same things the original writers did.


    In fact I think it could be worthwhile to just focus on some poor schmuck who got stuck with the Permanent Caste Mark flaw from 1E, and the local police, soldiers, and monks all try to shoot/stab him on sight, even when he's completely unarmed and eating lunch or taking a bath. Even when a Wyld Hunt hasn't arrived yet. Literally make it about his appearance and blatantly obvious lies about Anathema.
    Last edited by Erinys; 09-15-2021, 02:08 PM.

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  • Florin
    replied
    GRRM has written for TV in the past, like in the Beauty & the Beast show with Linda Hamilton and Ron Pearlman. However, I think his greatest boon to the show was having already plotted things out. D&D appear to have been much better at adapting than creating their own narrative.

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  • Mizu
    replied
    Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post
    I'm not saying GRRM is solely or even primarily to blame. I'm saying his presence didn't help. The basic point here is that pretty much nothing in all of the success of the GoT show was on GRRM's involvement with the show beyond that involvement being a psychological positive to fans worried about the adaptation process.

    There's a general perception in multiple fandoms, that was expressed directly in this thread, that you should have original/major creators on the base IP be active creative contributors to the adaptation. But what's the actual evidence for that? There are times where it was clearly a benefit and times where it clearly was a drag on the adaptation. There's plenty of adaptations that were great without such contributions, just as there are plenty of shit adaptations which theoretically might have been better with the original creatives' involvement (maybe).

    We can debate my examples all we want, but if you're unhappy with one, it doesn't really change the larger issue (I don't see anyone debating the point about Kirkman's negative influence on TWD's early seasons, even though his involvement in other adaptations of his works are examples of positive original creator contributions... because he learn from a lot of mistakes after a decade of TWD). I can keep rolling out examples until the show finally gets made, but that's not actually getting to the core point of why we should care if any particular Exalted developer/writer/etc. is involved beyond consulting with the TV adaptation's team.

    Oh, I agree with your general point that knowing how to write for one medium doesn't mean you are going to know what you are doing in a different medium and so its best to let professionals of the new medium do the leg work on an adaption into a new medium. I just disagreed with that example because I was under the impression that is exactly what they did in that case and so its not really a good example since the show runners did indeed run the show. Though I think that its a good idea to still have the creator around to give advice and clarify things so long as they don't run around like a bull in a china shop trying to tell show writers that their experience writing a comic/novel/game book means they know better then them what will work on the silver screen and overriding them.

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  • Ghosthead
    replied
    I don't know man, I don't know how you can be confident that all these things weren't better than in the counterfactual where the creators weren't involved. Doesn't seem like you have any good evidence for that at all really. You're entitled to your opinion, I just don't find convincing set against the more intuitive thing to me that having the main creators and visionaries of Exalted be involved is a good thing for making a dramatic product that is true to Exalted.

    (And on a wider thing, as an assumption, it just seems really nihilistic about the role of these people as unique creative minds who provided something unreplicable and authored by them, that can't be replicated by a committee like "creative team" of people who are somehow good at "execution" and their TV show making craft of scripwriting or whatever whether or not they actually had the ideas. But this is my baggage and getting into my bugbear with the sort of memish "Execution, competency, and craftsmenship is what matters. Originality doesn't matter, and you can start from practically any idea, good or bad, original or unoriginal, as long as you do it with sufficient execution and production values." that I absolutely loathe and find responsible for some of the sorts of cultural stagnation that seems to be about.)

    Leave a comment:


  • Heavy Arms
    replied
    I'm not saying GRRM is solely or even primarily to blame. I'm saying his presence didn't help. The basic point here is that pretty much nothing in all of the success of the GoT show was on GRRM's involvement with the show beyond that involvement being a psychological positive to fans worried about the adaptation process.

    There's a general perception in multiple fandoms, that was expressed directly in this thread, that you should have original/major creators on the base IP be active creative contributors to the adaptation. But what's the actual evidence for that? There are times where it was clearly a benefit and times where it clearly was a drag on the adaptation. There's plenty of adaptations that were great without such contributions, just as there are plenty of shit adaptations which theoretically might have been better with the original creatives' involvement (maybe).

    We can debate my examples all we want, but if you're unhappy with one, it doesn't really change the larger issue (I don't see anyone debating the point about Kirkman's negative influence on TWD's early seasons, even though his involvement in other adaptations of his works are examples of positive original creator contributions... because he learn from a lot of mistakes after a decade of TWD). I can keep rolling out examples until the show finally gets made, but that's not actually getting to the core point of why we should care if any particular Exalted developer/writer/etc. is involved beyond consulting with the TV adaptation's team.

    Leave a comment:


  • Mizu
    replied
    Wait, whats the basis for blaming the last two seasons on GRRM's end as opposed to the show runners? So far as I am aware there was nothing at all stopping them from doing exactly what you suggested and pulling a Fullmetal Alchemist 2003 instead of looking at the outlines of his unpublished work and using it as their roadmap.

    edit: Well, nothing but a lack of confidence that people would be interested in watching their work entirely on its own merits without his name attached to give it more credibility by saying they were adapting his plot.
    Last edited by Mizu; 09-14-2021, 05:30 AM.

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  • Heavy Arms
    replied
    The last two seasons of GoT could have been much better without GRRM. Basically, it comes down to there being two effective styles of adaptation: direct adaptation where you try to stay as true to the original and only make changes to account for a change in medium, and spiritual adaptations that attempt to capture the essence of the original but take larger liberties by letting the adaptation's creative team go their own way with things. If the GoT team didn't know what the ending was supposed to be, they could have written one that fit the number of episodes they had left, instead of having a whole season of rushed plot points to hit every key thing that needed to be hit to get the ending they had to get to. GoT was stuck in a bad compromise of directly adapting the plot outline, and trying to catch the spirit of the events between that. It didn't work.

    Exalted doesn't have anything to directly adapt in this sense. There's no official story to be following along with. There are just stories that have been written that take place in the setting It has to be a spiritual adaptation regardless of what direction they take.

    As for the "green flag" comment, I didn't say that to imply a panacea, but rather the opposite of a red flag. If a red flag is a sign that makes you consider not consuming a piece of entertainment, then a green flag is a sign that encourages you to do so instead. "The original creators are part of the creative team," is frequently taken as a green flag in this sense. I just think it's over-rated. I think middling Rotten Tomato scores as a red flag are overrating too (lots of movies are aimed at niche audiences that makes them unappealing to both mainstream critics and general audiences).

    Vetting stuff and chatting with people is what I mean by them being consultants more than active creative team members on the show.

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  • Ghosthead
    replied
    Can't imagine last season of GoT would've been better if GRRM wasn't involved. If the argument is that adaptation is very hard when it has to at all original, then I think that supports it, but I don't think it supports the idea that it isn't pretty positive to have central creator involvement. ("Green Flag", this being a perfect panacea, not being either my or anyone else in this thread's position, so I feel no need to address it.)

    I assume that they'd vet stuff and chat with people. I think most of those writers would probably be pretty good in a driving role at the general story concept and character concepts at least, I don't think they'd lack experience there.

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  • Heavy Arms
    replied
    The thing about the GoT example, and it's very relevant here, is that once they overtook the books, they were still working with Martin, and going off his creative work in the form of outlines for what was supposed to happen.

    GoT was strongest when Martin was the least important in terms of active involvement: when just adapting the existing books. When he could have been the biggest help, figuring out what to do once they got past the books, Martin as an active contributor didn't even manage to keep the quality the same. How are GCG or Vance/Minton supposed to help? Are they experienced screen writers? Storyboard artists? Film editors? Or are they most valuable as consultants to help the TV team keep their vision "Exalted" enough?

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  • Ghosthead
    replied
    Seems like the GoT example is literally the example of creator involvement mattering and transfer of creative talent? That is, the bits he basically wrote are good, the basically he did not are bad? It's the opposite case from "When they stopped adapting Martin, then the TV show really had a chance to become its own thing and shine!".

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  • Heavy Arms
    replied
    Creative talent rarely transfers well between mediums. Knowing how to make a good RPG doesn't mean you know how to make a good TV show, so besides keeping you around to reassure the fans that someone that really gets the IP is keeping an eye on things, what are most original creators actually supposed to do to contribute to the show's creative process?

    Going back to The Walking Dead, while it's great that Kirkman wants to be involved in the adaptation of his comics, TWD Season 2 is considered very weak, and a lot of that could be seen as Kirkman getting more influence over the show and wanting to spend more time directly adapting the farm arc rather than adapting what works for TV. As TWD continued on, and the spin-offs, and so on, Kirkman's presence didn't exactly keep everything on track despite him actually writing episodes.

    GRR Martin was supposedly regularly talking with the GoT showrunners about where the plot was supposed to go, and that didn't spare GoT from a rather hated ending (that is, according to Martin, the official ending if he dies before he finishes the books).

    Creator involvement can be good, but it's frequently not the green flag people treat it as.

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  • JohnDoe244
    replied
    Originally posted by Ghosthead View Post
    One other random thought about this; what would really sell me much more on this show, whether it was live action or whether it was animated, whether focused on a single scenario or much episodic, more than anything, would be the involvement of the people who formed the central ideas of Exalted and who continue to work with it - GCG, JM, EM, JV and all the rest. I guess a lot of the conversation about media sort of encourages us to think of works as "properties" that are totally alienated from their creators' labor, but at root, if we're trying to make sure something is really true to the core ideas and its substance, and not just the surface aesthetics, contact with the core creators, involving the people who made those creative choices is really important!
    I will post something positive in this thread. But that's not this post.

    GCG was listed as an executive developer on Third Edition.

    I am not privy to how 3E was developed. Maybe GCG had real creative input. But it felt like a rubber stamp exercise. Apparently he gave general advice and wrote the money and religion sections of the core (I do like those sections).

    IDK, maybe someone who knows better than me can weigh in on how involved GCG actually was in developing Current Edition.

    I'd be more reassured if VanceMinton were creatively involved (although that sounds like a lot of work that would detract from developing the gambling, IDK).

    Too often involving the original creator means cutting a check and having them endorse a product they had no connection to.
    Last edited by JohnDoe244; 09-13-2021, 05:53 PM.

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  • Mizu
    replied
    Originally posted by JohnDoe244 View Post

    Absolutely agree. It's in the Chapter Fiction for Exalted: The Dragon-Blooded.

    But that's my point. Not that RotSE was bad (I really enjoyed it), but that Exalted fans compulsively consume metaplot.

    But I've said my piece. I don't want to labor the point.


    Sure, but if you market Exalted as a family friendly show, then you are going to get more backlash from armchair bloggers.

    And, really, do you want Exalted as a PG13 show?

    I think going R is the way to do the universe justice, but, again, it makes it difficult to gain mainstream appeal. Which, again, isn't necessary but it's an obstacle.

    When I think "Exalted", I think of a mature setting. A setting that deals with empire, slavery, genocide, infanticide. A setting which doesn't shy away from sex and drugs. A setting where you summon demons to do your bidding and rip out human hearts to drink the blood of your prey. Mountains of corpses. Eldritch horrors. The "base" assumption is that you are playing a Solar who has to hide from the Wyld Hunt -- how far can you tone down refugee escaping genocide from the government?

    ...

    You could make a PG13 show and call that show "Exalted". I don't think you could make a show about Exalted that's suitable for 13 year olds.

    But, again, I'm really trying to not be a downer and to participate respectfully in this conversation. Please feel free to rebutt my points but I'm gonna mute this thread because I don't want to denigrate this idea... but I sincerely think that this is a bad idea, and it's really hard for me to convey what I mean in a productive manner.

    Hmm, they could always get their foot in the door by starting with broader appeal stories and then later on once they have an audience they can do something riskier and Game of THronesesque in terms of not shying away from sex and on screen violence against humans and such.

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