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  • #16
    Or even worse, he might start claiming that because he's King of Heaven, there's no-one above him, when obviously he only has that job because he was appointed by the Dragons.

    Originally posted by Mewtarthio View Post

    I can't see the Immaculates caring. The Sun is so powerful that your prayers aren't going to tempt him, nor is there any chance of him rising above his station. So long as your Sun-worship doesn't interfere with your other prayers, it should be fine unless Peleps Deled is looking over your shoulder.
    It's not about the Unconquered Sun. It's about the peasants. If the peasants pray to the Incarnae a lot, they might start to think the Incarnae are more than just bureaucrats and functionaries. They might start venerating the Incarnae more than the Dragons. We can't have that.
    Last edited by The Wizard of Oz; 06-22-2014, 04:23 AM.


    "Wizard of Oz, you really are a wizard!"

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    • #17
      The Immaculate Order isn't likely to spend much time promoting worship of Terrestrial deities. Those guys are supposed to do their job without bribes or prayers. They give them the occasional prayer, but that will probably be pretty rare. Maybe the local field god gets worshiped once or twice a year. Most of the Immaculate Order's prayers likely go to Celestial gods.

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      • #18
        I agree. I expect that, in the Realm, most terrestrial deities get diddly-squat in terms of prayers. Only the most powerful ones, like the Gods of big mountains or giant forests, are powerful enough for the Immacualtes to make sure to give them a bit of prayer to keep them happy. But your local river God, what's he going to do? If he starts getting uppity and demanding prayers, he'll get an Immaculate fist to the face.
        Whereas if Luna gets annoyed that she isn't getting enough prayers from the Immaculates, she's likely to send someone round to complain to Kejak and it's actually a hassle.
        I vaguely remember that when the Order was set up, they made sure that the most powerful Gods would get enough prayer to keep them from causing trouble for Kejak and co.
        Of course, to this day, Immaculate calendar time is still a carrot and stick for the Order to use. They might promise a God more time to get his support in the Realm conquering his country, or less time if he helps resist them.


        "Wizard of Oz, you really are a wizard!"

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Godjaw View Post
          Most worship of gods actually goes towards the terrestrial gods, as they are the ones that you could actually confront, who control and maintain physical domains. Beyond that, gods associated with values of the community. If the Incarnae are worshipped it's likely in some esoteric interpretation of them. The Realm sets aside a time for worship of every god.
          I assume that just like people in the real world, humans in Creation have a level of faith that their prayers are heard. They can't read the core book and find out that Venus would as soon wipe her ass with your desperate feelings of first love as she would help you two stay together forever. There's a love goddess; if you're lonely and you want love, you'll probably pray to Venus, if you have fallen for someone and want them to love you back, you'll probably pray to Venus, and if you're celebrating your 50th year of marriage, you'll probably pray to Venus.

          Likewise, if I'm a warlord who's just managed to conquer a neighboring city-state, why not sacrifice some of the captured soldiers to ALL the gods who matter? If I don't sacrifice to Mars, what's to say she won't take offense and punish me?

          Originally posted by The Wizard of Oz View Post
          Or even worse, he might start claiming that because he's King of Heaven, there's no-one above him, when obviously he only has that job because he was appointed by the Dragons.
          Does the Immaculate Order teach that Sol only has his job because the Dragons gave it to him?
          Last edited by hippokrene; 06-22-2014, 04:55 AM.


          Come and rock me Amadeus.

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          • #20
            Not really. I think it's more that he has his appointed place in the universe... which is under the Dragons. I guess some might argue that he was essentially appointed by the universe, which the Dragons are representations of, but that's getting into complicated pantheistic stuff that most people wouldn't get.
            I shouldn't think they actually go around saying he was appointed by them... but he does serve them, as do all things.


            "Wizard of Oz, you really are a wizard!"

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            • #21
              Originally posted by TheCountAlucard View Post
              Just you wait 'til he declares himself Double King of Heaven.
              Or maybe something even more flamboyant:

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              • #22
                Originally posted by Morangias View Post
                Or maybe something even more flamboyant:

                ​I'm glad I wasn't alone. I was going to post that, but it seems you beat me to it. :P


                Raksi plays Peek-a-boo for keeps. ~ nalak42

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Kleptomania View Post
                  ​I'm glad I wasn't alone. I was going to post that, but it seems you beat me to it. :P
                  I've rewatched the series some three weeks ago, so it was pretty fresh in my memory. Also, this scene is easily one of my favorites from DBZA.

                  In other words, you never stood a chance

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by hippokrene View Post

                    I assume that just like people in the real world, humans in Creation have a level of faith that their prayers are heard. They can't read the core book and find out that Venus would as soon wipe her ass with your desperate feelings of first love as she would help you two stay together forever. There's a love goddess; if you're lonely and you want love, you'll probably pray to Venus, if you have fallen for someone and want them to love you back, you'll probably pray to Venus, and if you're celebrating your 50th year of marriage, you'll probably pray to Venus.

                    Likewise, if I'm a warlord who's just managed to conquer a neighboring city-state, why not sacrifice some of the captured soldiers to ALL the gods who matter? If I don't sacrifice to Mars, what's to say she won't take offense and punish me?
                    The Incarnae get their ambrosia/quintessence from others gods, taxing them. Sure Venus may be love, but there is likely a god of love for every direction, possible even further with particular tribes. Same with War, there is a god of war for every direction and particular tribes, Ahlat is the most well known. This is why I find it much more plausible that mortals would pray to their own denomination, idea, god, of their region or people. To the Southeast, War and Ahlat are the same, who is this Mars?

                    The Incarnae don't take offense, because they're the Incarnae, so high up/ The top rungs of the Celestial Bureaucracy. They're the gods other gods pray to, and much of their time is taken by the unknowable Games of Divinity.


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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by hippokrene View Post
                      I assume that just like people in the real world, humans in Creation have a level of faith that their prayers are heard. They can't read the core book and find out that Venus would as soon wipe her ass with your desperate feelings of first love as she would help you two stay together forever. There's a love goddess; if you're lonely and you want love, you'll probably pray to Venus, if you have fallen for someone and want them to love you back, you'll probably pray to Venus, and if you're celebrating your 50th year of marriage, you'll probably pray to Venus.
                      I agree with this, though I would imagine that, following the classical Greek mentality, the most common motivation for prayer is that gods are due reverence and will be angered if they don't receive it, with specific requests being secondary. This was more or less how the Greeks decided what "a god" was to begin with. Even today, large-scale ritualized prayer tends to be more about granting proper reverence to the King of Heaven and reaffirming one's status as part of a worshipful community of believers. I have no doubt that, for instance, a warlord would pray to Mars specifically on the eve of their military ventures, but I imagine this tends to be less formal and more of a Hail-Mary. By default I would imagine that "the gods know when you're praying to them" is interpreted more like Santa's naughty-or-nice list -- the gods know who is giving them the reverence they deserve, and if you snub them, they will know it was you.

                      The Immaculate Faith probably plays into this tendency, since it emphasizes the Perfected Hierarchy, where obeisance to superiors is an end in itself.

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Ejtaka View Post
                        Been a while since I read it, but here's what I remember. The Incarnae get worship from everyone, as they are the top dogs in heaven. They also have a tax on the worship received by other gods, which goes into a general fund used to feed unemployed jobs, and major projects. Even the Immaculate Order makes sure to give direct worship to the Incarnae, as appropriate.

                        Also, the seven days of the week are named after the seven Incarnae, so I think each gets a benefit then.
                        Yeah, I think it's a 10% tax of all general Heavenly prayer. Basically, the Incarnae are rolling in so much veneration, it would take a *massive* disruption of life on earth for them to even notice they were getting less. Also, each day of the week has a specific god set over it, which are probably in the entourages of the Incarnae...

                        Remember also that the Immaculate Order doesn't proscribe the worship of any gods, what it cracks down on are mortals *directly worshipping* deities themselves! ONLY the Terrestrials are spiritually pure and strong enough to actually pray, according to their doctrine. It's not WHO mortals pray to, that angers the Immaculates, it's that they pray AT ALL!

                        Not sure what the IO teaches about the relationship of the Dragons and the Incarnae. It's probably as vague as possible on the subject, and young monks who press the issue are scheduled for more "training" with Deled. But note that the Sids who built the Order's beliefs hijacked the Five Elemental Dragon's names for their Immaculate Dragon fictions; despite this, the ED do actually get all the prayers aimed at the ID, so they aren't complaining.

                        Also, many aspects of the Incarnae were ported over to the Immaculate Dragons. Imperial Legionaires, for ex, are much more likely to pray to Mela, the War Dragon, for aid rather than Mars (that is, the monks leading the troop prayers will do this). Of course, who knows what prayer a man may silently mutter as he marches into battle?

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Hand-of-Omega View Post
                          Not sure what the IO teaches about the relationship of the Dragons and the Incarnae. It's probably as vague as possible on the subject, and young monks who press the issue are scheduled for more "training" with Deled. But note that the Sids who built the Order's beliefs hijacked the Five Elemental Dragon's names for their Immaculate Dragon fictions; despite this, the ED do actually get all the prayers aimed at the ID, so they aren't complaining.
                          I believe that the Immaculates see the Incarnae as subordinate to the Dragons, but that's just something gleaned from author commentary (I think Jenna, but maybe Grabowski?).


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                          • #28
                            I'm pretty sure the books say that the IO teaches that all the Gods are subordinate to the Dragons.


                            "Wizard of Oz, you really are a wizard!"

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                            • #29
                              As with Norse and Roman religion, in Creation one generally deals with gods on the basis of bargains and covenants. Sure, you want to avoid pissing off the gods, so you'll propitiate them to avoid random divine nastiness, but when you want something in particular, you make or pledge a sacrifice to the god in exchange for its aid. Even benevolent gods are not presumed to be beneficent, any more than rich and powerful mortals are; one can beg them for charity, but it's unwise to do so with any expectation of actual aid unless you have something to offer in compensation.


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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by AnubisXy View Post
                                The Immaculate Order isn't likely to spend much time promoting worship of Terrestrial deities. Those guys are supposed to do their job without bribes or prayers. They give them the occasional prayer, but that will probably be pretty rare. Maybe the local field god gets worshiped once or twice a year. Most of the Immaculate Order's prayers likely go to Celestial gods.
                                I'd assume that the people making up a totally fake religion in a setting where gods are a real thing wrote some excuse to explain to the ignorant faithful why they pray at all instead of just saying 'do your damn jobs you glorified custodians'. Probably something like the spirits needing the energy received from prayer to perform their appointed duties just like a farmer needs to eat to get the energy to farm.


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