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[2ed] Binding the Deathlords.

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  • [2ed] Binding the Deathlords.

    So, Deathlords are ghosts. Necromancers can summon ghosts. Solars can use necromancy. You need a real name to summon and bind a ghost. Solars have Investigation charms. So, the plan:
    1. Be an Investigation 5, Essence 5 Eclipse (or Be I5E5 and have a pocket Eclipse).
    2. Have Legacy-Detecting Glance.
    3. Come to the Deathlord under the protection of Eclipse treaties.
    4. Use Legacy-Detecting Glance to learn his name.
    5. Summon him and do horrible things (make him jump into Oblivion).
    6. ????
    7. PROFIT!

    Am I missing anything?

  • #2
    (1) IIRC Deathlords explicitly don't count as "ghosts" for stuff like this. They're like "ghosts-plus" (not a system term obviously lol) otherwise it would just make stuff like this way too easy.
    (2) What treaties? You'd have to make them first, and why would a Deathlord enter into them? The Eclipse diplomatic immunity anima doesn't count the realms of the dead, "just" the courts of Malfeas, the Wyld, and Yu-Shan. The Moonshadow anima covers courts of the dead, but that's a whole other thing after all.
    (3) I would think a true name cast into Oblivion (like Deathlords or Abyssals did upon taking their title-name) probably removes the power of name-magic over their now-destroyed original name. I mean, that's not RAW but it would make sense.


    "Chicanery-No: If a player uses this Charm in an abusive or exploitative manner, the ST may punch him right in the goddamn face." --TheDementedOne

    "Happiness is very brittle and short-lived in the Exalted community, because ressentiment is our cultural touchstone." --Gayo

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    • #3
      Also I think you'd have to win a battle of wills with the Deathlord in order to forcefully bind them. This is all also assuming the Deathlords aren't the ghost equivalents of third circle demons and require void circle necromancy and other conditions to summon them, in which case Solar's can't learn that class of necromancy.

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      • #4
        I have always assumed that their diplomatic immunity did protect them from all spirits including ghosts. Wasn't there some fluff in the Eclipse castebook about MoW not being able to attack Swan and his circle?


        Loch Ness monsters. On vacation. On a pillow.


        My wife is on Spotify!

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Jutlander View Post
          I have always assumed that their diplomatic immunity did protect them from all spirits including ghosts. Wasn't there some fluff in the Eclipse castebook about MoW not being able to attack Swan and his circle?
          There indeed was

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          • #6
            I checked the Eclipse castebook from first edition and it does say the oaths allow them to walk in shadowlands. The problem is that the next page has Mask pointing out that he gained advantages from being hospitable to them, so that could be taken to mean the Deathlords have nothing that stops them from offing an Eclipse who shows up in their territory. Swan's particularly mention of meeting MoW also says that he set up an agreement to meet him before hand, so I wouldn't count on ancient oaths protecting you from them.

            More to the point if the Deathlord thinks you are doing something violates the oath ,such as prying into their darkest secrets, there might be a clause that lets them just kill you. That's assuming your Storyteller isn't the kind who decides the Deathlords are bored and might try to set stuff up to kill your Eclipse that are "unintentional" such as one of his abyssals trying to kill him and unfortunately nailing you in the throat with that arrow.

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            • #7
              Speaking as an ST without consulting my books, here is what I would say. First, the Deathlords are not typical ghosts. I wouldn't allow a thaumaturgy ritual to call one. I would probably require it to be at third Circle Necromancy. Next, the Deathlords are better Necromancers than you. At the very least, I would allow the Deathlord to bolster his Willpower with Essence the same way a summoner can.

              I wouldn't automatically say no. I would really recommend you only do it in the same sort of situation where you would consider summoning Ligier.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Jutlander View Post
                I have always assumed that their diplomatic immunity did protect them from all spirits including ghosts. Wasn't there some fluff in the Eclipse castebook about MoW not being able to attack Swan and his circle?
                Eclipses having immunity in areas of death doesn't really make sense though. There was no Underworld/Labyrinth when the Solar Exaltations were created. Gaining that power retroactively would be sort of weird (Abyssal inversion and GSP...green goo add-on makes sense how it's a power Moonshadows and Fiends have).


                "Chicanery-No: If a player uses this Charm in an abusive or exploitative manner, the ST may punch him right in the goddamn face." --TheDementedOne

                "Happiness is very brittle and short-lived in the Exalted community, because ressentiment is our cultural touchstone." --Gayo

                Comment


                • #9
                  The Eclipses don't have diplomatic immunity as an inherent result of the way their Exaltations were created, they have diplomatic immunity has a result of the ancient pacts passed at the dawn of time.


                  Bits and pieces of Exalted setting.

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                  • #10
                    The dawn of time here being either from the Time of Glory (for spirits, Yu-shan, Wyld) and the surrender of the Yozis (for the Demon City)? Yeah, I still don't think the Underworld would be covered.


                    "Chicanery-No: If a player uses this Charm in an abusive or exploitative manner, the ST may punch him right in the goddamn face." --TheDementedOne

                    "Happiness is very brittle and short-lived in the Exalted community, because ressentiment is our cultural touchstone." --Gayo

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      The Underworld was created during the Primordial War and existed at the time of the Yozis' surrender. There is also no reason why it couldn't have been later on during the First Age - and that is in fact quite likely, as that is when the Wyld was a more pressing issue, not during the Time of Glories. All the books mention is "ancient pacts."


                      Bits and pieces of Exalted setting.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Omicron View Post
                        The Underworld was created during the Primordial War and existed at the time of the Yozis' surrender. There is also no reason why it couldn't have been later on during the First Age - and that is in fact quite likely, as that is when the Wyld was a more pressing issue, not during the Time of Glories. All the books mention is "ancient pacts."

                        In fact, DotFA explicitly points out when (and why) in the First Age Eclipses established their pacts with the Fair Folk, expanding their Diplomatic Immunity to cover them! So, "ancient" can certainly refer to the Age of Dreams...

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Ejtaka View Post
                          Speaking as an ST without consulting my books, here is what I would say. First, the Deathlords are not typical ghosts. I wouldn't allow a thaumaturgy ritual to call one. I would probably require it to be at third Circle Necromancy. Next, the Deathlords are better Necromancers than you. At the very least, I would allow the Deathlord to bolster his Willpower with Essence the same way a summoner can.

                          I wouldn't automatically say no. I would really recommend you only do it in the same sort of situation where you would consider summoning Ligier.

                          Agreed. Since they are partially dead Third Circle Souls, it would almost have to be Third Circle Necromancy, which is the only thing that can summon Hecats. Still, while this plan may be out of reach for a Solar, that just means he has to befriend an Abyssal to pull it off!

                          Even so, however, Deathlords probably get to cheat by adding their Whispers to the Binding Resistance roll, or something. And considering that all of them are Third Circle Necromancers too, can't they just fire off a Countermagic as soon as the spell takes hold of them?

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Zelbinnean View Post
                            (3) I would think a true name cast into Oblivion (like Deathlords or Abyssals did upon taking their title-name) probably removes the power of name-magic over their now-destroyed original name. I mean, that's not RAW but it would make sense.
                            It's true that their names no longer exist, and titles don't count as such for summoning purposes. OTOH, the fact that Deathlords/knights DO gain Resonance for answering to their former names does indicate that there is still *some* connection, there...hmm...

                            I did ask once what people thought would happen if a Sidereal tried to steal a Deathlord's name with their Larceny power...there wasn't any real consensus, as I recall. Part of me likes the idea of the Sidereal only finding an empty, cold void where the name should be, which gives her shivers; but I also like the idea that it works, but now the Sid gains Resonance instead for as long as she holds onto it!

                            If their names are truly destroyed, then they probably shouldn't exist in history or memory, as a Creation-wide Shaping Effect...even the Deathlords themselves shouldn't recall them.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Hand-of-Omega View Post
                              [...] considering that all of them are Third Circle Necromancers too, can't they just fire off a Countermagic as soon as the spell takes hold of them?
                              If that worked, many (most?) 3CDs could do the same thing when someone tried to summon them, couldn't they? In any case, I certainly wouldn't allow them that out - I like the idea that the Deathlords are, fundamentally, ghosts, and therefore subject to all the peculiarities of that condition (at least to a certain extent).

                              That said, they'd probably be next to impossible to actually bind - you'd have to be way, WAY past the Godzilla threshold to even consider trying it.

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