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  • Isator Levi
    replied
    Originally posted by Accelerator View Post
    Let's say you tell the Spindex: "Teach this guy about commanding armies. If he asks about the Yozis or demon worship or demon summoning or Malfeas, ignore him. This would last for 4 weeks." does this count as task binding or just normal binding?
    Any time where you bind a demon to do a particular thing, it's task binding; demon gains fulfilment of the task as a Defining Principle, and will remain around until such time as the task is complete or can no longer be pursued. The only alternative to that is binding the demon with a general Defining Tie of loyalty to you. It will be in your service, which in some cases can mean acting of its own initiative to do what it wants or thinks you want, possibly in a form where it thinks it knows your best interests better than you do.

    To prevent task binding from being made excessively broad, I would be inclined to reject one that was phrased in terms of too many caveats. Yours is a case where the same effect could be gotten be firmly wording the task as the only thing they're permitted to talk about. If it's a demon that is indelibly likely to proselytize for the Yozis, it might still end up slipping in a few sermons even if given a Principle telling it not to. It's not really going to be a basic goal of demons, so it's not the kind of thing that should be necessary any time they come up.

    Leave a comment:


  • nalak42
    replied
    Originally posted by Accelerator View Post
    Ok. I know about that post. The thing is, I thought that the task binding simply transformed the intimacy the demon had for you into an intimacy for the task.

    Like... its allowed to choose how to go about the task, and you can't define how it is to do it.

    Let's say you task bind a demon, saying 'guard this door, forever'.

    ... you know what? Nevermind.

    Let's say you tell the Spindex: "Teach this guy about commanding armies. If he asks about the Yozis or demon worship or demon summoning or Malfeas, ignore him. This would last for 4 weeks." does this count as task binding or just normal binding?
    When we say task binding it just means the demon is bound until the job is complete. Baring one's own external circumstances you wouldn't need to specify 1 month unless you just wanted it teach them for a month. So if you just bind it and say something like, "I need this person educated to be able to lead an army confidently and competently. Stick to the mundane stuff since that's what we need the most. Bring them to me when you think their skills are up to snuff." Would pretty much do it since the Spindex has been told the scope of what it needs to teach, baring something like a defining intimacy towards educating people about the worship of Yozis it'll stick to teaching them about the mundane stuff needed to lead an army until it thinks the person has learned to do so to the desired level at which point it'll bring the student to you for confirmation.

    Leave a comment:


  • TheCountAlucard
    replied
    Giving it a task with a set duration instead of an indefinite one is still task binding.

    Leave a comment:


  • Accelerator
    replied
    Originally posted by MoroseMorgan View Post
    Was going to edit that post, but between having a hyperlink and tagging someone it was freaking out.

    I imagine asking for a Blood Ape to babysit your kid is like when The Hound watched Arya in GoT.
    Ok. I know about that post. The thing is, I thought that the task binding simply transformed the intimacy the demon had for you into an intimacy for the task.

    Like... its allowed to choose how to go about the task, and you can't define how it is to do it.

    Let's say you task bind a demon, saying 'guard this door, forever'.

    ... you know what? Nevermind.

    Let's say you tell the Spindex: "Teach this guy about commanding armies. If he asks about the Yozis or demon worship or demon summoning or Malfeas, ignore him. This would last for 4 weeks." does this count as task binding or just normal binding?

    Leave a comment:


  • MoroseMorgan
    replied
    Was going to edit that post, but between having a hyperlink and tagging someone it was freaking out.

    I imagine asking for a Blood Ape to babysit your kid is like when The Hound watched Arya in GoT.

    Leave a comment:


  • MoroseMorgan
    replied
    Originally posted by The Wizard of Oz View Post

    It'll follow your orders. At least, what it thinks are your orders.

    The problem with demons isn't that they like to trick you, or look for loopholes. They have a Defining Intimacy of loyalty to you; they really are loyal.

    But consider this; would you want a psychopath to be slavishly devoted to you? They might stalk you, even kidnap you because they believe you should be together and no-one else loves you like they do.


    One of the writers used this as an example; what happens if you command some Blood Apes to take your kid to a foreign city, without being seen or killing anyone? Blood Apes don't know anything about kids. They don't understand why he's crying, or why he can't march for 10 hours a day. They'll try to do it, but using Blood Apes as babysitters is an absolutely terrible idea. My dog is loyal to me; I sure wouldn't use him as a babysitter!



    And of course, there's always incompetence; people can try really hard at their jobs, but still screw them up.


    So back to your example;

    The demon isn't going to try to convert him to demon worship; you told them not to.*

    But its job is to teach them; what if the guy asks them questions about demonology? How do they explain what it is to be a demon, without talking about the yozis? That's really awkward.

    When I worked in China, I had to sign a contract saying I wouldn't try to convert anyone to my religion, or try to change their political beliefs. But I also had to teach them about British culture (I had a whole semester's class on it). How can I explain why British people like democracy, why they like freedom of speech and religion, why they like a multi-party system, without presenting it as a good thing? If people asked me "Why are you a Christian", how can I explain why? I mean, I'm not going to lie to people. I'm not going to say "Democracy is crap, Xi Jinping is great." But I also didn't want to get both myself, and my Chinese friends or students, in trouble (I could have got fired; they could have got a lot worse). So... I kind of tried to fulfill both things, but I was probably quite inconsistent, because I didn't know what to do. I

    So if the demon is teaching them about, say, history, what happens when they're explaining pre-history? You told the demon to teach this guy, and you also told them not to mention the Yozis. How can they do that? So they're going to do their best to do both, but you may not be happy with the results.

    *Unless they have a Defining Intimacy of "I must convert people to the worship of the Yozis." That's as strong as their loyalty to you. So they'll be conflicted and might try and convert them even though you told them not to. But most demons actually don't have that intimacy.

    Here is the full post, originally by Holden, hosted by Eric-
    https://ericminton.wordpress.com/201...mon-summoning/

    Accelerator

    Leave a comment:


  • TheCountAlucard
    replied
    Originally posted by Accelerator View Post
    What's the difference between ordinary long term orders, and task binding?
    You don't get to make "ordinary long-term orders." Either a demon is bound to your will, or to a task. If the demon is bound to your will, its loyalty is to you, and it serves for a year and a day; if a demon is bound to a task, its loyalty is to the task, and it serves forever.

    Leave a comment:


  • Accelerator
    replied
    Originally posted by The Wizard of Oz View Post

    It'll follow your orders. At least, what it thinks are your orders.

    The problem with demons isn't that they like to trick you, or look for loopholes. They have a Defining Intimacy of loyalty to you; they really are loyal.

    But consider this; would you want a psychopath to be slavishly devoted to you? They might stalk you, even kidnap you because they believe you should be together and no-one else loves you like they do.


    One of the writers used this as an example; what happens if you command some Blood Apes to take your kid to a foreign city, without being seen or killing anyone? Blood Apes don't know anything about kids. They don't understand why he's crying, or why he can't march for 10 hours a day. They'll try to do it, but using Blood Apes as babysitters is an absolutely terrible idea. My dog is loyal to me; I sure wouldn't use him as a babysitter!



    And of course, there's always incompetence; people can try really hard at their jobs, but still screw them up.


    So back to your example;

    The demon isn't going to try to convert him to demon worship; you told them not to.*

    But its job is to teach them; what if the guy asks them questions about demonology? How do they explain what it is to be a demon, without talking about the yozis? That's really awkward.

    When I worked in China, I had to sign a contract saying I wouldn't try to convert anyone to my religion, or try to change their political beliefs. But I also had to teach them about British culture (I had a whole semester's class on it). How can I explain why British people like democracy, why they like freedom of speech and religion, why they like a multi-party system, without presenting it as a good thing? If people asked me "Why are you a Christian", how can I explain why? I mean, I'm not going to lie to people. I'm not going to say "Democracy is crap, Xi Jinping is great." But I also didn't want to get both myself, and my Chinese friends or students, in trouble (I could have got fired; they could have got a lot worse). So... I kind of tried to fulfill both things, but I was probably quite inconsistent, because I didn't know what to do. I

    So if the demon is teaching them about, say, history, what happens when they're explaining pre-history? You told the demon to teach this guy, and you also told them not to mention the Yozis. How can they do that? So they're going to do their best to do both, but you may not be happy with the results.

    *Unless they have a Defining Intimacy of "I must convert people to the worship of the Yozis." That's as strong as their loyalty to you. So they'll be conflicted and might try and convert them even though you told them not to. But most demons actually don't have that intimacy.
    Yes... OK.

    What's the difference between ordinary long term orders, and task binding?

    Leave a comment:


  • Mindworm Jim
    replied
    In collaboration with my ST I made a document that covers possible conditions that a character could suffer from for easy reference (inspired by the pages in the back of 5th Ed DnD). I guess my question would be: are all of these conditions rule's accurate and did I leave anything out?

    Leave a comment:


  • The Wizard of Oz
    replied
    Originally posted by Accelerator View Post
    OK.

    A question on demons and commanding them.

    Let's pretend I have a spindex. A demon specialised in training and tutoring. One dot per week. One person per demon.

    You grab a dude. You stick him right next to the demon. You lock them in a house with entertainment, a months supply of food and water, and a lavatory.

    You tell the demon to teach him, and to not talk about the yozis or convert him to demon worship.

    You come back in a month.

    What happens? Will the demon obey your command not to convert your dude into demon worship, or does it follow your orders?
    It'll follow your orders. At least, what it thinks are your orders.

    The problem with demons isn't that they like to trick you, or look for loopholes. They have a Defining Intimacy of loyalty to you; they really are loyal.

    But consider this; would you want a psychopath to be slavishly devoted to you? They might stalk you, even kidnap you because they believe you should be together and no-one else loves you like they do.


    One of the writers used this as an example; what happens if you command some Blood Apes to take your kid to a foreign city, without being seen or killing anyone? Blood Apes don't know anything about kids. They don't understand why he's crying, or why he can't march for 10 hours a day. They'll try to do it, but using Blood Apes as babysitters is an absolutely terrible idea. My dog is loyal to me; I sure wouldn't use him as a babysitter!



    And of course, there's always incompetence; people can try really hard at their jobs, but still screw them up.


    So back to your example;

    The demon isn't going to try to convert him to demon worship; you told them not to.*

    But its job is to teach them; what if the guy asks them questions about demonology? How do they explain what it is to be a demon, without talking about the yozis? That's really awkward.

    When I worked in China, I had to sign a contract saying I wouldn't try to convert anyone to my religion, or try to change their political beliefs. But I also had to teach them about British culture (I had a whole semester's class on it). How can I explain why British people like democracy, why they like freedom of speech and religion, why they like a multi-party system, without presenting it as a good thing? If people asked me "Why are you a Christian", how can I explain why? I mean, I'm not going to lie to people. I'm not going to say "Democracy is crap, Xi Jinping is great." But I also didn't want to get both myself, and my Chinese friends or students, in trouble (I could have got fired; they could have got a lot worse). So... I kind of tried to fulfill both things, but I was probably quite inconsistent, because I didn't know what to do. I

    So if the demon is teaching them about, say, history, what happens when they're explaining pre-history? You told the demon to teach this guy, and you also told them not to mention the Yozis. How can they do that? So they're going to do their best to do both, but you may not be happy with the results.

    *Unless they have a Defining Intimacy of "I must convert people to the worship of the Yozis." That's as strong as their loyalty to you. So they'll be conflicted and might try and convert them even though you told them not to. But most demons actually don't have that intimacy.

    Leave a comment:


  • TheCountAlucard
    replied
    Originally posted by Beast of Bitter Oblivion View Post
    Demons are naturally malevolent being who like to find loopholes and misinterpret commands if there is scope for it . I wouldn’t leave anyone with a demon for extended period of time.
    Wrong gameline. We're playing Exalted, not Faustus.

    Leave a comment:


  • marin
    replied
    Originally posted by Epee102 View Post
    I'm aware, I'm looking at publishing a MA inspired by Red Locust Style on the STV, and want to credit the dev who tweeted the list and brief descriptions way back when.
    If it's this one, it was Morke:

    SPSV [Single Point Shining Into the Void] is about creating opening to unleash deadly-perfect strikes. Heaven's Ladder is about the theatrics of beating the shit out of someone with a ladder.

    Leave a comment:


  • TheCountAlucard
    replied
    Originally posted by Accelerator View Post
    In other words, it suddenly becomes up to the demon, eh?
    That's not quite what I said. It will still try to the best of its ability to fulfill the letter and spirit of your orders, but it's still bounded by its nature.

    Leave a comment:


  • Epee102
    replied
    Originally posted by marin View Post

    Last we heard on that, Vance had decided Heaven's Ladder was a bit too goofy to make sense as a formalized fighting style in Creation, but hadn't ruled out an improvised weapons-centered style, or an artifact ladder.

    I'm aware, I'm looking at publishing a MA inspired by Red Locust Style on the STV, and want to credit the dev who tweeted the list and brief descriptions way back when.

    Leave a comment:


  • Accelerator
    replied
    Originally posted by TheCountAlucard View Post
    Is this demon particularly prone to trying to convert people to Yozi-worship? If not, then it probably just teaches him.
    In other words, it suddenly becomes up to the demon, eh? OK then.

    Leave a comment:

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