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  • Originally posted by Uknown DarkLord View Post


    So what was the Deliberative then? More of a UN type deal?
    I have often thought that the Deliberative was different things in different times, even if the most basic summary of it was being a kind of council of Solars in which they could discuss and coordinate on common issues. Particularly that for long stretches of Creation's history, it basically just served as a forum in which Solars could talk things out when they had disputes or wanted to sound out allies or assistance.

    My imagined timeline for the First Age has it that developing towards a functional parliament with the participation of almost all Solars collectively exercising control over the entirety of the Realm was a thing towards the very end, and something that a lot of people were becoming nervous and annoyed by.

    Originally posted by Uknown DarkLord
    Or was it a more federalized society, like how Athens and Sparta were both part of Greece, but their own separate city states with their own laws?
    That wasn't being a federalized society any more than the United States, Mexico and Canada are all part of a federation by virtue of being on the same continent and having a few treaties. Ancient Greece was... a landmass and a common language, shared by dozens of separate societies that were often quite different.

    Sure, at points in ancient Greek history you had groups like the Peloponessian and Delian Leagues, alliances of mutual benefit (albeit ones in which a hegemonic city basically starts dominating the others towards its ends), but that's still a very different thing.

    The modern nation state of Greece is not something that projects readily back through time to a period when nationalism was unknown and kind of unthinkable.


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    • Originally posted by Elfive View Post
      Ok, maybe I could have phrased a few things better.

      Look at it this way. we got 800 solars, lunars and sidereals combined, versus a few tens of thousand dragonblooded. A decent proportion of both are gonna end up in leadership roles, cos that's just what exalts are gonna do. the rest, presumably, will take subordinate roles.

      This means that, statistically speaking, you're way more likely to have a solar or lunar being served by multiple dragon blooded than you are to have a dragon blooded served by a solar or lunar. There just aren't enough to go around.
      These details need to be placed in the proper context, otherwise we'll have people retaining narratives of the kind that have Risa trying to argue with a former fellow Dynast that following Solars is the proper way of things because... that was what they all used to do, and the gods told them to do it.

      That being said, I think your proof is begging the question a bit. Sure, the majority of Dragon Blooded were not going to be served by a Solar or Lunar because of the limited numbers, but it is not self-evident that the majority of Solars or Lunars are going to have Terrestrials of any kind in service to them, nor that they don't wind up in service to somebody.

      The disparity in numbers can indeed form the basis for an argument in which most Solars and Lunars have no such adjutants because they're too widely distributed to have the others falling into line behind them, or even that having significantly higher numbers gave the Terrestrials a basis to assert greater independence via collective bargaining or simply being too far away.


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      • Note also that the First Deliberative and the Second Deliberative were distinct entities, much like the Roman Empire vis-a-vis the Holy Roman Empire.


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        • So what can someone do with Bureaucracy 5? Its always been weird to me what a skill like that can do, and the comment about bureaucracy excellencies reminded me.

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          • Originally posted by Eric Minton View Post
            Note also that the First Deliberative and the Second Deliberative were distinct entities, much like the Roman Empire vis-a-vis the Holy Roman Empire.

            Umm... So what happened for there to be a 2nd Deliberative? And what sets the 2nd Deliberative apart from the 1st?

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            • IIRC, the First Deliberative was brought down by something called the Shadow Deliberative, a group who felt it was too authoritarian and centralised.
              I think this was followed by the Sunstrife Wars (I assume a time of Solar civil war).
              Then later, the Second Deliberative was set up.

              Note that there may well be more than 1000 years (maybe 2000) between the First and Second Deliberatives.


              It made me wonder if the Second Deliberative was much looser than the First.
              Last edited by The Wizard of Oz; 07-03-2019, 04:20 PM.


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              Brother Alazar, Zenith occultist and last survivor of the Black Monastery of Leng
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              • According to the Lunars book:

                Shortly after the beginning of the First Age, Lunars revolted against a Solar who claimed the right to be monarch of the world by virtue of being the greatest general of the Divine Revolution. The war was ended with the Solar Bond.

                A few centuries later, the Shadow Deliberative began undermining the First Deliberative (don't know how long that took).
                So the First Deliberative seems to be something that happened in the first millenium. I think it was the First Deliberative that fought the Niobaran League, but I'm not sure.
                It was followed by a period known as the Great Interregnum, and maybe also as the Fallen Stars Interregnum? And I think during that time was the Sunstrife Wars, where Solars fought each other in a massive series of civil wars.
                At some point later, the Second Deliberative formed, and I think it fought the Niobaran League (though Lunars just says "the forces of the Old Realm fought them" so it could have been, say, an alliance that led to the creation of the Deliberative, rather than something that happened during that time. I think that would make sense).
                The Second Deliberative lasted until circa-5000.

                My guess is the time between the two Deliberatives was long, possibly over 1000 years, but I'm not really sure. I think it's intended that this all be kept a little vague.

                Oh, also on the subject of how organised and centralised the Second Deliberative was, Lunars worked to stop it gaining too much central authority. And I can guess so did many Solars.
                Last edited by The Wizard of Oz; 07-03-2019, 04:47 PM.


                My characters:
                Dr Soma Vaidya, viper-totem Lunar and kung-fu doctor
                Brother Alazar, Zenith occultist and last survivor of the Black Monastery of Leng
                Shadow of Kings, Twilight barbarian scholar, master of lost First Age crafting techniques. Has a lot of clones. Picture by Jen.

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                • As to the previous discussion about whether DBs mostly served Solars or not:

                  Originally posted by What Fire Has Wrought
                  The Dragon-Blooded served many roles in the Exalted
                  courts of the First Age. Often they were courted by the
                  Celestial Exalted and other great powers to serve as
                  generals, adjutants, bannerets, governors, and emissaries.
                  But the world was wide and filled with places
                  where the blood of the Dragons could take root unchallenged.
                  Some joined together as oligarchs; others
                  began their rule alone, only to become matriarchs or
                  patriarchs to extended broods of Exalted offspring.
                  ...
                  As the Celestial Exalted warred against one another,
                  especially amid the Great Interregnum of the First
                  Age, so too did the Dragon-Blooded first do battle with their own kin.


                  My characters:
                  Dr Soma Vaidya, viper-totem Lunar and kung-fu doctor
                  Brother Alazar, Zenith occultist and last survivor of the Black Monastery of Leng
                  Shadow of Kings, Twilight barbarian scholar, master of lost First Age crafting techniques. Has a lot of clones. Picture by Jen.

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                  • Originally posted by The Wizard of Oz View Post
                    IIRC, the First Deliberative was brought down by something called the Shadow Deliberative, a group who felt it was too authoritarian and centralised.
                    I think this was followed by the Sunstrife Wars (I assume a time of Solar civil war).
                    Then later, the Second Deliberative was set up.

                    Note that there may well be more than 1000 years (maybe 2000) between the First and Second Deliberatives.


                    It made me wonder if the Second Deliberative was much looser than the First.
                    There was also the Eight Directions Embassy, which I think predated the First Deliberative and seems to me to be the first try at a global organizaiton like that.


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                    • Originally posted by Blaque View Post

                      There was also the Eight Directions Embassy, which I think predated the First Deliberative and seems to me to be the first try at a global organizaiton like that.

                      My own guess is that the Eight Directions Embassy wasn't quite a governing body the way the latter Deliberatives were. I do think it was an international organization (at least insofar as there were "nations" in that time period), but I believe its purpose wasn't so much to negotiate and mediate between Exalts, so much as to do so "externally", with beings like Fair Folk, various gods and elementals, demons, and other creatures. I think that's when the agreements that make up the Eclipse Caste diplomatic immunity power were signed.

                      I suspect that the Eight Directions Embassy was a bit too early in history for an "international diplomacy" body to be really necessary - the Exalted, at least the Celestial Exalted, were probably all basically friends at that point, or at least their relationships were all pretty much personal. The Eight Directions Embassy period seems to be shortly after the Primordial War ended, and I'd guess that the Exalts, even if they weren't all precisely contemporaries, at least still regarded each other as comrades-in-arms, and hadn't gone too far from their mortal roots yet. They hadn't yet formed a culture of Exalted, I suspect. So even the ones who had already founded nations wouldn't have had too much time to start getting arrogant and overly proud.

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                      • If the point of the Eight Directions Embassy was to go around exploring the newly opened up Creation, it seems a waste of good mythology to say that all or most of the Exalted were in the "known" category of the world.

                        But this is probably starting to go beyond the scope of the "ask a question" thread.


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                        • Originally posted by Accelerator View Post
                          So what can someone do with Bureaucracy 5? Its always been weird to me what a skill like that can do, and the comment about bureaucracy excellencies reminded me.
                          You can manage projects really well.

                          Best example of this is probably Aria, Marena's god-blooded mother from Keychain of Creation. For canon examples... probably The Slug?

                          Light and L from Deathnote are also probably good inspiration.
                          Last edited by JohnDoe244; 07-04-2019, 09:28 AM.


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                          • Originally posted by JohnDoe244 View Post
                            You can manage projects really well.

                            Best example of this is probably Aria, Marena's god-blooded mother from Keychain of Creation. For canon examples... probably The Slug?

                            Light and L from Deathnote are also probably good inspiration.
                            Fuck it

                            I think I should make a thread on what 'peak human' means in Exalted

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                            • Originally posted by Accelerator View Post
                              So what can someone do with Bureaucracy 5? Its always been weird to me what a skill like that can do, and the comment about bureaucracy excellencies reminded me.
                              Cut through red tape, know who to pester to get your project done. Set up an efficient organization. Maybe parse through a heavy legalese document?

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                              • Originally posted by Accelerator View Post
                                So what can someone do with Bureaucracy 5? Its always been weird to me what a skill like that can do, and the comment about bureaucracy excellencies reminded me.
                                -At the highest level, you can manage and defend an organization which is a big player in the world, or wrap such an organization led by someone else around your little finger.

                                -You can make a chain of deals which culminates with a closed off nation selling their rarest exotic goods to you in a historic first for their nation.

                                -You can organize the emergency evacuation of an entire city with such efficiency and thoroughness that no one gets left behind.

                                -You always know when it is safe to bribe your way out of trouble and never pay more than you need to.

                                -You can uncover industrial sabotage and subterfuge through sheer accounting prowess.

                                And other similar feats.

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