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  • Originally posted by Accelerator View Post
    You guys were talking about permanently imprisoning solar, and you said that imprisoning a solar was a very difficult thing to do, since any Exalted natural creates charms to adapt to any situation they find themselves in.
    Yeah, but no, the Exalted don't. XP doesn't exist in-character, and not every Solar periodically gains partitioned little upgrades to their competence that handily happen to be suited to the exact situations they're in.

    Treating the setting like that's a basic expectation results in absurd shenanigans and players advocating for inflicting prisoners with routine amputations and spinal surgeries; I know, because I've seen it argued before.
    Last edited by TheCountAlucard; 07-10-2019, 09:39 AM.

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    • Originally posted by Accelerator View Post

      Hi dude.

      It's from rpg.net. More noobery. You guys were talking about permanently imprisoning solar, and you said that imprisoning a solar was a very difficult thing to do, since any Exalted natural creates charms to adapt to any situation they find themselves in. Under mind control, integrity charms. Under imprisonment, larceny.
      This is something that PCs get to do, and it's purely for gameplay reasons. That's because "garbage Storyteller imprisons your character indefinitely while the other PCs get to go out and have fun adventures" is a known failure state for dysfunctional player groups in RPGs. It's not a statement about the setting, and does not apply to NPCs (or to PCs when the player is actually cool with playing out an imprisonment scenario).


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      • Originally posted by Eric Minton View Post

        This is something that PCs get to do, and it's purely for gameplay reasons. That's because "garbage Storyteller imprisons your character indefinitely while the other PCs get to go out and have fun adventures" is a known failure state for dysfunctional player groups in RPGs. It's not a statement about the setting, and does not apply to NPCs (or to PCs when the player is actually cool with playing out an imprisonment scenario).
        Well....

        Here's the link.

        https://forum.rpg.net/index.php?thre...oobery.320274/

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        • Originally posted by Accelerator View Post
          SLS already responded. The case still stands I think what he and Mintion said, especialy since that was said twelve years and a whole other edition ago.


          And stuff.
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          • Originally posted by Accelerator View Post
            Well....

            Here's the link.
            Dude. That discussion was from 2007. Literally nobody who's a dev now was a dev then, and nobody who was a dev then is a dev now. And the devs of now have made a conscious choice for that to not be the way things work in the setting (and the writer you're quote-mining specifically stated that he's since changed his mind and no longer feels that way).

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            • β€œIt is said an Eastern monarch once charged his wise men to invent him a sentence to be ever in view, and which should be true and appropriate in all times and situations. They presented him the words, 'And this too, shall pass away.' How much it expresses! How chastening in the hour of pride! How consoling in the depths of affliction!” ― Abraham Lincoln


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              • Originally posted by Stephen Lea Sheppard View Post
                That sounds like something I might have said back during early 2nd edition. I don't think that way anymore, though.

                (In fact I'm pretty sure taking that thought process to its logical conclusion and really considering the implications is what convinced me the opposite must be true.)
                I'm interested in what exactly is this "opposite" conclusion is, and how you came to it, if you don't mind.

                I totally get the explanation for a PC as explained by Eric Minton a few posts earlier, but I find it interesting as well to think that NCP Solar will eventually get out of these types of situations, because that seems thematic. Of course I'm not saying "Solar will always win", because that's not interesting and not particularly a theme, but as a Storyteller, if my players succeeded to put their hands on a solar, and put him into chains, I'd totally prepare a cool scenario of "He's coming back for you" for some later times.

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                • Originally posted by Eric Minton View Post

                  This is something that PCs get to do, and it's purely for gameplay reasons. That's because "garbage Storyteller imprisons your character indefinitely while the other PCs get to go out and have fun adventures" is a known failure state for dysfunctional player groups in RPGs. It's not a statement about the setting, and does not apply to NPCs (or to PCs when the player is actually cool with playing out an imprisonment scenario).
                  I don't know man. The What Fire Has Wrought chapter fiction has a Solar escaping from The Imperial Manse after years of imprisonment. I "get" that it's supposed to be related to the disappearance of Big Red, but we see the Solar incapacited by poisons and bound in chains, then taken to the most secure place on the Blessed Isle, then he's busting out a few years later.

                  It's your game, and I bow to whatever explaination you care to offer, but it seems to mesh with the idea of NPCs growing in experience and developing the charms they need in the face of adversity to me. *shrug*


                  Hi, I'm JohnDoe244. My posts represent my opinions, not facts.

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                  • Originally posted by Accelerator View Post
                    So how would you stunt the self-learning of larceny, or the self-training of the intelligence attribute? You're a scholar solar, put in manacles and left to rot in a dark cellar. How are you going to learn the larceny charms to bypass your bonds and sneak out the door past the guards? [/SIZE][/FONT][/COLOR]
                    Smart characters are easy. Drawing on a book you read once, or a story told to you by your grandmother, or making observations on how a badger gets honey...

                    (I like the scene in live action Beauty and the Beast where they suddenly become master locksmiths because they build clocks as a hobby.)

                    Dumb-bum, I'd allow to Fonze it.


                    Hi, I'm JohnDoe244. My posts represent my opinions, not facts.

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                    • Say a Solar wanted to Geas a being; a spirit, a construct, a human, whatever. The Solar wants to forge a purpose for their target and the target agrees to it, so we're talking about a willing participant. Seems to me like that would be a Working, no? If so, what difficulty would you assign it? If not, what other method could you see for applying a Geas to something?


                      I post Artifacts in this thread. How I make them is in this thread.
                      I have made many tools and other things for 3rd Edition. I now host all of my creations on my Google site: The Vault of the Unsung Hero

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                      • Originally posted by The Unsung Hero View Post
                        Say a Solar wanted to Geas a being; a spirit, a construct, a human, whatever. The Solar wants to forge a purpose for their target and the target agrees to it, so we're talking about a willing participant. Seems to me like that would be a Working, no? If so, what difficulty would you assign it? If not, what other method could you see for applying a Geas to something?

                        I'd call it a working, yeah. I'm not sure I'd require a separate working for each geas, though - that would be quite a lot of work. I think I'd make up a special merit, something that reduced the interval for workings when they were just for binding this kind of oath. I'd call it 2 dots to reduce the interval from weeks to days, possibly with higher levels of the merit available for Celestial- or Solar-Circle sorcerers that reduced it even further.

                        As for the ambition of the working, I'd base that on a couple of things. First, there's the power level of the consequences of a broken geas. This is pretty simple to adjudicate - if it's a minor effect that slightly degrades the target's natural capabilities, it's Terrestrial 1, while if it's something that fundamentally changes the nature of the universe, it's Solar 3.
                        The other factor is how good the curse is at figuring out if it's been broken or not. If it's extremely legalistic, something where every little thing has to be spelled out and it's easy to circumvent, that's Terrestrial. Something capable of more nuance, able to judge the spirit of the oath as well as the letter, is Celestial. And if the oath is actually proactive, effectively sentient and capable of arranging things to push a target that even looks like they're thinking about going off the beaten path, that's Solar. Use whichever factor is higher to set the Ambition. If the effect of breaking the geas is open-ended, rather than set (that is, effectively chosen by the ST, but assured to be appropriate), I'd bump it up one Ambition level, and require a minimum of Celestial level, since it requires the geas to be, in effect, sentient. If the curse for breaking the geas is set by the sorcerer, chosen from an appropriate effect of the level they did the working at, at whenever the geas is broken, then I'd bump the Ambition up a full circle.

                        And to cover the "is there any other way to do this" question, well, there's always Eclipse-caste oath-binding.

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                        • Originally posted by Kelly Pedersen View Post


                          I'd call it a working, yeah. I'm not sure I'd require a separate working for each geas, though - that would be quite a lot of work. I think I'd make up a special merit, something that reduced the interval for workings when they were just for binding this kind of oath. I'd call it 2 dots to reduce the interval from weeks to days, possibly with higher levels of the merit available for Celestial- or Solar-Circle sorcerers that reduced it even further.

                          As for the ambition of the working, I'd base that on a couple of things. First, there's the power level of the consequences of a broken geas. This is pretty simple to adjudicate - if it's a minor effect that slightly degrades the target's natural capabilities, it's Terrestrial 1, while if it's something that fundamentally changes the nature of the universe, it's Solar 3.
                          The other factor is how good the curse is at figuring out if it's been broken or not. If it's extremely legalistic, something where every little thing has to be spelled out and it's easy to circumvent, that's Terrestrial. Something capable of more nuance, able to judge the spirit of the oath as well as the letter, is Celestial. And if the oath is actually proactive, effectively sentient and capable of arranging things to push a target that even looks like they're thinking about going off the beaten path, that's Solar. Use whichever factor is higher to set the Ambition. If the effect of breaking the geas is open-ended, rather than set (that is, effectively chosen by the ST, but assured to be appropriate), I'd bump it up one Ambition level, and require a minimum of Celestial level, since it requires the geas to be, in effect, sentient. If the curse for breaking the geas is set by the sorcerer, chosen from an appropriate effect of the level they did the working at, at whenever the geas is broken, then I'd bump the Ambition up a full circle.

                          And to cover the "is there any other way to do this" question, well, there's always Eclipse-caste oath-binding.
                          That's a great response and I appreciate it. But your comment at the end about the Oath-binding really brought me back to my goal of it. A Geas, as I understand it, isn't an oath that you can break. It literally enforces a form of conduct, so there aren't consequences for breaking, it just keeps you from being able to do a thing against it. This may not be a literal interpretation of the word in all it's uses, but it's how it's been depicted in Exalted so it's the form I'm using here.

                          We're talking a situation where someone or something agreed to be bound to or against a task and they can't voluntarily break it, not punishment if they do.


                          I post Artifacts in this thread. How I make them is in this thread.
                          I have made many tools and other things for 3rd Edition. I now host all of my creations on my Google site: The Vault of the Unsung Hero

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                          • Originally posted by The Unsung Hero View Post
                            A Geas, as I understand it, isn't an oath that you can break. It literally enforces a form of conduct, so there aren't consequences for breaking, it just keeps you from being able to do a thing against it.
                            Ah, I see what you mean. In that case, here's how I'd break it down. (I'm using "Task binding" and "obedience binding" more or less how demon/elemental summoning works - task binding compels them to do or not do some specific job, but they can choose their own method of doing it, while obedience binding gives them an unbreakable Defining Tie of Loyalty to you, so they'll usually do what you ask, but might go off track if they think its better for you).
                            Terrestrial 3: Task-bind a willing mortal for the duration of the task, or obedience-bind one for a year and a day.
                            Celestial 1: Obedience-bind a willing mortal indefinitely, task-bind a willing supernatural creature that doesn't have any other strong connections (like a 1st circle demon, an elemental, or a minor god) for the duration of the task.
                            Celestial 2: Obedience-bind a willing supernatural creature (as above) for a year and a day.
                            Celestial 3: Task-bind a more potent supernatural creature (2nd circle demon, high-essence elemental, greater Terrestrial deity or lower-level Celestial deity, etc.) for the duration of the task, or obedience-bind it for a year and a day, or obedience-bind a lesser supernatural creature indefinitely.
                            Solar 1: Obedience-bind a more-potent supernatural creature indefinitely.
                            Solar 2: Task-bind a truly potent spiritual being (a 3rd-circle demon, greater Celestial god, Deathlord, elemental dragon, etc.) for the duration of a task, or obedience-bind it indefinitely.
                            Solar 3: Task-bind a supernatural being of truly transcendant power (a Yozi or Incarnae) for the duration of a task, or obedience-bind it for a year and a day, or obedience bind a supernatural being of the level below indefinitely.

                            In all cases, assume willing subjects. If they're unwilling, bump the level up a full circle (so unwillingly obedience-binding a mortal for a year and a day would be Celestial 3, for example).

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                            • Originally posted by Chausse View Post

                              I'm interested in what exactly is this "opposite" conclusion is, and how you came to it, if you don't mind.

                              I totally get the explanation for a PC as explained by Eric Minton a few posts earlier, but I find it interesting as well to think that NCP Solar will eventually get out of these types of situations, because that seems thematic. Of course I'm not saying "Solar will always win", because that's not interesting and not particularly a theme, but as a Storyteller, if my players succeeded to put their hands on a solar, and put him into chains, I'd totally prepare a cool scenario of "He's coming back for you" for some later times.
                              Yeah. I agree.

                              I think a central theme of the Exalted, is that you can never be truly safe from them.

                              Set up a wall? They'll jump over. Fly over. Transform into a rat and tunnel through. Use strength charms to smash it down. Learn craft and tear it down with a touch. Learn sorcery and teleport. Learn larceny and walk through the walls.

                              You get pissed. Or really afraid.

                              You run away to the edges of the universe. Deep in space, teleporting and escaping, hiding. No traces of your existence. You live in a black hole, in the event horizon. They use investigation and survival supernals to find you. Spells to hunt you down by sympathetic links. Integrity and resistance that let's them walk into a black hole with no protective clothing. And then they kill you.

                              There's no way to be totally safe from the Exalted. No way to be secure.

                              Make a shield and they'll bypass it, steal it, or convince you to remove it. Hide in the deepest darkest hole, and they'll find you. Make an army, and they'll tear through it. Any out of context problem has to be truly out there, before there's a chance a united and determined Exalted host will fall to it.

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                              • twothings:

                                1) I'd say that the ability to task bind unwilling subjects is a concept that degrades the setting and should not be allowed at all. Removing character agency is deeply problematic in any setting, but especially so in a setting such as Exalted. I'm not talking about demon summing here, I'm talking about applying those mechanics to humans and/or exalts. Consider that if such a thing were even possible what it would connote for the state of pre-usurpation interactions between solars and everyone else.

                                2) Demons, ghosts and elementals already have mechanics in place to bind them to tasks. I can't remember exactly where it was said but I seem to recall a Dev ruling that spells and workings weren't interchangeable. If something is a spell it's because that's how that power works. You couldn't achieve the same thing by repeating a working over and over again.

                                You should never be able to put this kind of binding on a Yozi. I don't care if they're willing, I simply think it's better for the setting if it isn't possible to make a Yozi do your bidding for a year. Period. Same with the upper echelon of gods, greater elementals, the deathlords, or any exalts.

                                It's possible with demons because of the surrender oaths, it's possible for elementals because you're literally crafting an elemental every time you cast the spell (note that there's no way to summon a more powerful elemental) and ghosts... well we haven't got necromancy rules yet so maybe they're still valid to bind and maybe they're not?


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