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  • Originally posted by JohnDoe244 View Post

    My opinion is that the Tell is like The Flash's/Spider-Man's secret identity. If you keep it secret then it's secret, but once people know then EVEYONE knows and you can't put the cat back in the bag.
    People associating your particular Tell with your particular identity will mean that when people notice that the cat on the windowsill has a distinctly missing paw, they'll know what specific Lunar it is rather than just knowing that it's a disguised Lunar in general. That doesn't necessarily mean they'll notice something out of place about the cat's paw.

    I'm pretty sure that the bonuses for recognising the Tell require a character to have personally witnessed it, not just be told second-hand what it looks like. That could be incorporated into the bonus for being generally on the lookout for shapeshifters, but you still need to be on that lookout. Otherwise, I think a person might be aware that a given person has cat ears as a Tell in the abstract, and still miss it while looking right at them.

    Originally posted by The Wizard of Oz
    I think essentially the idea is you do it by applying your charms (which, after all, represent your intrinsic shapeshifting awesomeness). You buy up the Stamina charms to be a tough badass bear, your Strength charms to be a really strong bear, your Perception charms to have a really good sense of smell, etc.


    I have two thoughts on this.

    One is that while, sure, your spirit shape is definitely something that you can rely upon to be able to harness the Protean benefits that would resonate with, something that you never have to go out of your way to unlock those benefits to any Charms that might have them, nothing privileges those powers over any other Charms and shapes that you have. A Strength Charm that resonates with a bear will have the better capacity by default, but once you acquire the shape of a milk snake via the sacred hunt and an Appearance Charm that benefits an animal with mimicry, they're indistinguishable.

    The other is that I actually disagree about Lunar Charms on the whole representing shapeshifting prowess. Some do; most of the Universal Charms constitute refinements of the intrinsic capacity to shapeshift (and are distinctly lacking in Attribute minimums), there are a few Heart's Blood Charms that expand the range of shapes you can assume, and the Swarm Charms are all about a new form of transformation. But for the rest, of the few that have a transformative aspect most render that optional.

    The vast majority of Lunar Charms strike me as very essentially human. A different emphasis on humanity than Solars have, but still primarily about presenting as human and doing human things. The core image of the Lunar Exalted that their Charms represent and empower is of a human liberated, dualistic, predatory, flexible, and deeply capable of relating to other people.

    There's the Protean Keyword, but the capacity to shapeshift in and of itself lies along a separate axis than the Charms that have that Keyword. So I find the Charms themselves aren't really about expanded capacity for shapeshifting, or shapeshifting being the means to power, but applying shapeshifting to refine that human power by giving a more literal expression to the raw emotional energy, or applying the human power to enhance the intrinsic adaptations of a particular animal.

    Which leads into...

    Originally posted by Beast of Bitter Oblivion
    Has anyone had this come up where your character is more about exploring and improving their animal shapes


    I think that such a thing could be written, but it would be a bit at odds with how Lunars are currently written, and to have written them around that concept at the core would have pigeon-holed them a lot.

    I see that as a reason that it shouldn't really be published, and shouldn't be the first thing that most people go to, but if a person already knows what they want out of it then I don't think it would be too difficult to develop some custom Charms towards that purpose.

    Actually, I think that another reason that it would be hard to make such Charms for publication purposes is that one might expect it to have a range of options to cover varied spirit shapes, which... would be hard to make room for (and I think that printing a variety of paths but where only one is available to a given character at a time and it's locked in from the beginning would be weird Charm design), and that otherwise making it something generic enough to be broadly applicable might be both unsatisfying and... kind of redundant against what other Charms can already do.

    Like, does your alpha bear have, say, extra health levels in a manner distinct from Ox-Body Technique? Or does it stack with Ox-Body Technique? That seems like it would be a bit overpowered. I didn't quite agree with Wizard's specific point, but he still raises the question of what this stuff would do that is not already covered by more broadly applicable Lunar Charms. You've already got Strength Charms, you've even got Charms to add mutations to the spirit shape, what will the bear be capable of doing that is different from that or not redundant in the face of it or at risk of being overpowered if they can stack?

    The closest that I can think of would be... okay, I take some things back, there is one path to accomplish something like what you're saying: Moonsilver Carapace and Claws of the Silver Moon allow one to bring forth an Artifact that can be modelled on their spirit shape, and that can provide Evocations that could take the form of strengthening or cheapening existing Lunar Charms that are in line with the totem animal, and maybe a few things that are more deeply specific to the animal that Lunar Charms wouldn't cover. And it's more or less balanced by things like the cost of keeping those Artifact conjuring Charms up, and maybe some more limited conditions within the Evocations. That would work. And hey, a special shapeshifting armour doesn't even necessarily need to have a colour or texture scheme that you don't want it to.

    Would that be acceptable to you?




    I have approximate knowledge of many things.
    Watch me play Dark Souls III (completed)
    https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLDtbr08HW8RW4jOHN881YA3yRZBV4lpYw Watch me play Breath of the Wild (updated 12/03)

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    • I guess evocations sound like they could work but your ST will probably hate you having to balance them . Moonsilver carapace is definitely on the list next when I get essence two. I’m just not sure what sort of evocations to give it that s not already covered by stamina charms. I haven’t really done evocations before.
      Last edited by Beast of Bitter Oblivion; 08-08-2019, 05:49 PM.

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      • Originally posted by Beast of Bitter Oblivion View Post
        I guess evocations sound like they could work but your ST will probably hate you having to balance them . Moonsilver carapace is definitely on the list next when I get essence two. I’m just not sure what sort of evocations to give it that s not already covered by stamina charms. I haven’t really done evocations before.
        Well that's naturally the game being played with Artifacts and custom Charms in general, is it not. That and what the Charms do is surely no less a concern with an Artifact than it is of they were just another cascade.

        Fangs at the Gate contains an Artifact that primarily builds off of Relentless Lunar Fury, so that could be a starting point for how to design an Artifact that enhances and grows out of Lunar Charms. I think the first question is which Stamina Charms feel most relevent to the bear image, then if there's any particular bear action (literal or metaphorical) that a Charm could more specifically cover, and work up to the capabilities of the huge myth bear, which might simply take the form of a one and done transformation into a form with various high stats and enhanced capabilities akin to getting the stats of one of the stronger Hundred Devils or the Solar Brawl Super Saiyan.


        I have approximate knowledge of many things.
        Watch me play Dark Souls III (completed)
        https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLDtbr08HW8RW4jOHN881YA3yRZBV4lpYw Watch me play Breath of the Wild (updated 12/03)

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        • I'm away from my books right now, what do you need to have to buy dots of Craft: First Age Artefacts? And is there something about workings?


          My characters:
          Dr Soma Vaidya, viper-totem Lunar and kung-fu doctor
          Brother Alazar, Zenith occultist and last survivor of the Black Monastery of Leng
          Shadow of Kings, Twilight barbarian scholar, master of lost First Age crafting techniques. Has a lot of clones. Picture by Jen.

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          • I had in mind for a character concept a No Moon Lunar that had taken over the life of a young Dragon Blooded Dynast but kept her alive and locked in a cell somewhere. I was thinking of a sorcerous working on the cell that would slowly sap the will of anyone that stays in it for more than say a day, essentially hollowing them out. Which circle and level of ambition would you say it is?

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            • Bit of a noob question which I suppose I shouldn't be asking by this point, but for languages, do you buy Each as a separate one dot Merit or is there a:

              Language OOOOO merit which I assume would be much expensive by the time you're learning your 4th?

              Comment


              • Nah, each one is separate. Same as if you have a daiklaive and jade breastplate, it's two 3-dot merits. So each is just 3xp.

                I don't think the language system is very realistic, but it is an improvement over 2nd ed, where languages did get more expensive the more you bought. (Well, the 2nd language was cheaper, the 3rd was a little more expensive, the 4th more and the 5th more).
                Really, learning a second language is more difficult than a third language, which will be more difficult than learning a 4th. Though it depends on the language of course; if you speak Italian, French and German, learning English is fairly easy, but it won't help a lot with Mandarin (though it will help a bit).


                My characters:
                Dr Soma Vaidya, viper-totem Lunar and kung-fu doctor
                Brother Alazar, Zenith occultist and last survivor of the Black Monastery of Leng
                Shadow of Kings, Twilight barbarian scholar, master of lost First Age crafting techniques. Has a lot of clones. Picture by Jen.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by The Wizard of Oz View Post
                  I'm away from my books right now, what do you need to have to buy dots of Craft: First Age Artefacts? And is there something about workings?
                  Lore 5, Occult 5, Craft (Artifacts) 5, and at least Terrestrial Circle Sorcery. Each attempt to craft or repair a First Age artifact requires Terrestrial Circle workings for 2-3 dot artifacts, at least one Celestial Circle working plus Terrestrial Circle workings for 4-5 dot artifacts, and at least one Solar Circle working plus multiple Celestial Circle workings for N/A artifacts. (Ex3 core, pp. 243-244)


                  Scion 2E: What We Know - A wiki compiling info on second edition Scion.

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                  • Originally posted by Plastic Doll View Post
                    I had in mind for a character concept a No Moon Lunar that had taken over the life of a young Dragon Blooded Dynast but kept her alive and locked in a cell somewhere. I was thinking of a sorcerous working on the cell that would slowly sap the will of anyone that stays in it for more than say a day, essentially hollowing them out. Which circle and level of ambition would you say it is?
                    Sounds Celestial, though depending on how resistible it is, it might be Solar.

                    Incidentally, judging this sort of stuff has its own thread: Sorcerous Workings: Where We Make Judgments.
                    Last edited by TheCountAlucard; 08-11-2019, 09:24 AM.

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                    • Originally posted by TheCountAlucard View Post
                      Sounds Celestial, though depending on how resistible it is, it might be Solar.

                      Incidentally, judging this sort of stuff has its own thread: Sorcerous Workings: Where We Make Judgments.
                      will do thanks.

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                      • When a charm says "At essence 5, you can also..." (not a repurchase, not add Essence dice), do you get the benefit if it's Supernal?


                        My characters:
                        Dr Soma Vaidya, viper-totem Lunar and kung-fu doctor
                        Brother Alazar, Zenith occultist and last survivor of the Black Monastery of Leng
                        Shadow of Kings, Twilight barbarian scholar, master of lost First Age crafting techniques. Has a lot of clones. Picture by Jen.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by The Wizard of Oz View Post
                          When a charm says "At essence 5, you can also..." (not a repurchase, not add Essence dice), do you get the benefit if it's Supernal?

                          Yes, you do. I can't find the posts, but the devs have clarified that you get the benefit of Supernal (i.e. you count as Essence 5) for all cases of Essence being expressed as a prerequisite or requirement for something.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by The Wizard of Oz View Post
                            When a charm says "At essence 5, you can also..." (not a repurchase, not add Essence dice), do you get the benefit if it's Supernal?
                            Originally posted by Big White Book p122, emphasis mine
                            Charms in your Supernal Ability treat your Essence rating as 5 for the purpose of meeting the prerequisites to purchase and upgrade them.
                            Originally posted by Big White Book p255
                            Repurchases and Upgrades: Some charms describe an extra effect upon repurchase. [...] Other charms merely describe an extra effect with a higher prerequisite
                            Seems pretty clear cut: yes.


                            Hi, I'm JohnDoe244. My posts represent my opinions, not facts.

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                            • Great, thanks.


                              My characters:
                              Dr Soma Vaidya, viper-totem Lunar and kung-fu doctor
                              Brother Alazar, Zenith occultist and last survivor of the Black Monastery of Leng
                              Shadow of Kings, Twilight barbarian scholar, master of lost First Age crafting techniques. Has a lot of clones. Picture by Jen.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Kelly Pedersen View Post


                                Yes, you do. I can't find the posts, but the devs have clarified that you get the benefit of Supernal (i.e. you count as Essence 5) for all cases of Essence being expressed as a prerequisite or requirement for something.

                                But not Essence 7 effects like Heaven Thunder Hammer's maximum effect, correct?


                                The Book of Laughing Serpents, Vol 1,Vol. 2,,Vol 3; Vol 4; Vol 5 , Vol 6
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                                My folklore and horror blog, here:http://undeadauthorsociety.com

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