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  • Answering here since I'm not a Dev.

    Originally posted by Kerredai View Post
    Judge's Ear Technique (core, pg. 312) says "Any magic which contests this effect goes to a roll-off against the Lawgiver’s (Perception + Investigation), with (Essence) automatic successes on the
    Solar’s roll, and 1s in the opposed roll acting as 10s to the Solar’s result."

    But when someone's lying to you, aren't you usually rolling against their Guile? Guile is a static value, there's no 1s in any pool to act as 10s on the Solar's result.
    Actually if someone lies to you, they are rolling their manipulation + presence (usually) against your resolve.

    The Resolve trait represents a character’s mental solidity and strength of will, her ability to resist being influenced by the persuasion and manipulation of others.
    Guile is more to resist letting others figure out your emotional state, thoughts, and intimacies.

    So instead of them rolling to try and deceive you, you automatically know it is a lie with the charm. Unless they have magic backing it up. At which point it is a roll off.

    Take Irresistible Questioning Technique which builds off Judge's Ear. The Solar rolls (Wits+investigation) against the user's resolve to force them to speak the truth.

    Guile isn't used at all.
    Last edited by Uknown DarkLord; 09-12-2019, 09:53 AM.

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    • That is an interesting way of looking at it. Essentially a lie would be a "persuade" action that is attempting to persuade the person to believe the lie as truth. Most people in my experience have gone with the discern motive (Perception + Socialize) vs Guile when it comes to seeing through lies, but treating the lie as social influence does mesh much better with charms like Judge's Ear Technique.

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      • It also dovetails with the description set in the instil action that gives penalties depending on how unbelievable the claim you’re making to install the intimacy is. Since instil is also based off resolve it’s kind of the same thing.

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        • I must say I'm still not really satisfied with the way the social system handle lies. I like making it a resist roll with Guile because I feel like lying should be tied to guile more than to presence, because it makes use of guile for something else than intimacies, and because it avoids a lucky player saying something completely absurd that no one should believe but still does the trick because he rolled huge.

          On the other hand, it's fun to sometimes have terrible lies that work because of luck, it is more fluid to integrate it as a simple malus to a presence roll, and it gives the initiative to the person making the action (in this case, lying).

          So I still don't really know

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          • Originally posted by Chausse View Post
            I must say I'm still not really satisfied with the way the social system handle lies. I like making it a resist roll with Guile because I feel like lying should be tied to guile more than to presence, because it makes use of guile for something else than intimacies, and because it avoids a lucky player saying something completely absurd that no one should believe but still does the trick because he rolled huge.

            On the other hand, it's fun to sometimes have terrible lies that work because of luck, it is more fluid to integrate it as a simple malus to a presence roll, and it gives the initiative to the person making the action (in this case, lying).

            So I still don't really know

            That's what the Implausibility Penalty is for. Lying is often an Instill action to create a Principle of belief in the lie, such as "The sky is actually red" or w/e. So you use the implausibility penalty according to just how huge of a lie that would be, roll it; if it still rolls over their Resolve despite lacking 1 to 5 dice, then they buy the lie. Sells the power of excellencies and penalty negators pretty damn good too, particularly when Lunars have Charms to avoid implausibility penalties outright making them some damn good deceivers.

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            • Originally posted by Alistair View Post


              That's what the Implausibility Penalty is for. Lying is often an Instill action to create a Principle of belief in the lie, such as "The sky is actually red" or w/e. So you use the implausibility penalty according to just how huge of a lie that would be, roll it; if it still rolls over their Resolve despite lacking 1 to 5 dice, then they buy the lie. Sells the power of excellencies and penalty negators pretty damn good too, particularly when Lunars have Charms to avoid implausibility penalties outright making them some damn good deceivers.
              I guess so but sometimes I feel like you should be able to ignore a lie that you know for sure is false, and there is no mechanic for this other than Willpower. Since the Social System has so many codes and restrictions you must check in order to produce a result (which I think is a really good thing), having the ability to lie without restriction from the system makes it so lying basically ignore a whole part of the social system and replace it with a flat malus.

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              • Originally posted by Chausse View Post

                I guess so but sometimes I feel like you should be able to ignore a lie that you know for sure is false, and there is no mechanic for this other than Willpower. Since the Social System has so many codes and restrictions you must check in order to produce a result (which I think is a really good thing), having the ability to lie without restriction from the system makes it so lying basically ignore a whole part of the social system and replace it with a flat malus.
                The penalties are how this is represented. A -5 penalty is "This is complete bullshit and extremely obviously so", keeping in mind that five dots is the difference between someone who has never even used an Ability and one of the best users of that Ability in the entire world. The Exalted can overcome this huge penalty, and the most skilled ones can still roll huge despite the penalty, but that only serves to further say that an Exalted socialite could indeed make you believe the sky is red. And yes, Willpower is the way to stubbornly stick with what you've known your whole life, despite you finding their arguments actually very believable and logical.

                Also, lying does not ignore a part of the social system. It's an Instill action like any other, except it gets a penalty tacked onto it; it still follows all the rules for Instill actions as normal.

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                • Originally posted by Chausse View Post
                  I guess so but sometimes I feel like you should be able to ignore a lie that you know for sure is false, and there is no mechanic for this other than Willpower. Since the Social System has so many codes and restrictions you must check in order to produce a result (which I think is a really good thing), having the ability to lie without restriction from the system makes it so lying basically ignore a whole part of the social system and replace it with a flat malus.
                  A lie you know for sure to be false is often a difficult thing. Just saying “the sky is red” in the most charismatic way possible is not going to work, but mega charisma characters don’t just say things well, they pick the right words too “the sky certainly does appear blue, but that’s just a failure of the human mind, it’s an optical illusion caused by the light not being reflected off anything before it reaches you. It is, in fact, red.”

                  What you can do if somebody hits you with that though, is willpower to disbelieve it because fuck this guy, and then immediately respond with a Read Intentions roll to figure out what this guy’s angle is. If he’s a good liar with high guile you might not get anything, but if you beat his guile and find out “he’s trying to get you to go outside to check the sky.” thats suspicious. He’s not making small talk or trying to impress you, he’s trying to get you outside on the balcony and focusing your attention upward.

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                  • Originally posted by Chausse View Post
                    I must say I'm still not really satisfied with the way the social system handle lies. I like making it a resist roll with Guile because I feel like lying should be tied to guile more than to presence, because it makes use of guile for something else than intimacies, and because it avoids a lucky player saying something completely absurd that no one should believe but still does the trick because he rolled huge.

                    On the other hand, it's fun to sometimes have terrible lies that work because of luck, it is more fluid to integrate it as a simple malus to a presence roll, and it gives the initiative to the person making the action (in this case, lying).

                    So I still don't really know

                    I'd make you roll Manipulation not Charisma for a lie, and you could use Socialize instead of presence for the instill iirc.


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                    • You can use any of the Social Abilities depending on how you word it or do it. Presence, Socialize, Linguistics, Performance...

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                      • Originally posted by DrLoveMonkey View Post

                        A lie you know for sure to be false is often a difficult thing. Just saying “the sky is red” in the most charismatic way possible is not going to work, but mega charisma characters don’t just say things well, they pick the right words too “the sky certainly does appear blue, but that’s just a failure of the human mind, it’s an optical illusion caused by the light not being reflected off anything before it reaches you. It is, in fact, red.”

                        What you can do if somebody hits you with that though, is willpower to disbelieve it because fuck this guy, and then immediately respond with a Read Intentions roll to figure out what this guy’s angle is. If he’s a good liar with high guile you might not get anything, but if you beat his guile and find out “he’s trying to get you to go outside to check the sky.” thats suspicious. He’s not making small talk or trying to impress you, he’s trying to get you outside on the balcony and focusing your attention upward.
                        I'm going to explain my personal experience, because I guess my problem with this specific point of this system is caused mainly because of my personal experience with this game, other games and my expectations in general.

                        See, I've been sort of traumatized by damned DD games where Charismatic people with Diplomacy would blabber anything that suited them and basically get everyone to do whatever they said because 1) We were young and didn't have a lot of theorization of the system, 2) The system was poor on this point, and 3) ST would often now know how to respond so someone rolling 40 to a diplomacy check at level 5 or something (don't check the numbers I don't care just get the idea).

                        So I was really enthusiastic when I saw the Exalted system because I thought : That's cool, people will actually have to engage with others NPCs on some sort of personnal level and try to commit to what they want or what they don't want, and you can't avoid this because it's not about scores, it's about using the system right. You have no idea how many times I had to say to my players during my first campaign of Exalted 3e : You did 20 successes to your presence roll, and that's cool, but you do not convince him because you didn't leverage an intimacy that matters to him. And it was an awesome experience, not because I like to deny my players achievements, but because it made them try to achieve something that went deeper on a personal and social level with the world we played in, and it was really satisfying to have them invest in this part of the game.

                        So where did my problems arise, might you ask ? I already went into full detail about this experience in another topic, so I'll just sum it up here : A player got into HUGE trouble, he gave a HUGE lie about it, with at least some characters knowing for sure that this is totally false, but it worked even with severe malus because he rolled a fuckton of successes (and well, because I think he cheated but whatever it's another topic and he's a socialize supernal so it wasn't out of context), and so he got out of the situation and we all felt it was totally wrong because the system was not making a correspondance that made sense between its mechanic and what felt logical in the story. And it was a letdown for me that really got me into questionning what should I do about lies in my game because one lie gave us a wrong experience, but it's only once so it's fine.

                        But what would happen if someone decided to lie on a regular basis, I don't know, but I'm not sure to be ready to handle this from a systemic standpoint, because everyone has a dead parent he liked, but it's only a -5 to say he's actually alive and you can reunite them if they do this specific task for you (or whatever lie that just adapts to the situation), and I feel this negates the best point about this system that I really like, that is : The character can enable social influence only if he did the effort to make the situation appropriate. But by lying without restriction from the mechanic, you can basically always enable this social influence.

                        And yeah, sure, you can always say "Yeah but the consequences ..." but as I said, what I like about this system is the dynamic it creates on the social level, even if they have to pay consequences for lying because people might discover their lies, the player actually dodged a mechanic I really like and that didn't feel good at all the first time, and I don't think this will go better with time.

                        To be clear, if they was a Solar Charm that made impossible lies plausible (same style that the Charm that lets you propose anything without having anyone lowering their intimacies towards you out of disgust) I certainly would be fine with it, but the way it happened means it is actually deeply embedded into the core system.

                        That was just my rant on a personal experience anyway, I progressed a lot on this topic. For example, I'm now way more eager to have someone Challenge a fact to call out someone telling an obvious lie (mechanic that I never used before, now at least I have good opportunities to do it).

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                        • Originally posted by Chausse View Post

                          snip.

                          Like I mentioned before, lying does not act any different from any other Instill action in this game. The thing you're talking about, needing to leverage existing Intimacies? That's Persuade actions, which are a completely different thing although still a type of social influence. The player did not dodge any mechanics, lying works like this the same way as truthfully telling someone "I'm the best shot in town", proving it, and instilling a Tie of Awe towards you. Or the same way as telling them "The Immaculate Faith is your salvation", showing them proof of how their beliefs saved them, and instilling a Principle of "The Immaculate Faith is my salvation". These Intimacies do very little on their own, mind; leveraging them for Persuade actions, such as getting yourself out of trouble, already requires, you know, a Persuade action anyways. And Persuade actions have things they don't allow if the Intimacy is not strong enough.

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                          • Originally posted by Alistair View Post


                            Like I mentioned before, lying does not act any different from any other Instill action in this game. The thing you're talking about, needing to leverage existing Intimacies? That's Persuade actions, which are a completely different thing although still a type of social influence. The player did not dodge any mechanics, lying works like this the same way as truthfully telling someone "I'm the best shot in town", proving it, and instilling a Tie of Awe towards you. Or the same way as telling them "The Immaculate Faith is your salvation", showing them proof of how their beliefs saved them, and instilling a Principle of "The Immaculate Faith is my salvation". These Intimacies do very little on their own, mind; leveraging them for Persuade actions, such as getting yourself out of trouble, already requires, you know, a Persuade action anyways. And Persuade actions have things they don't allow if the Intimacy is not strong enough.
                            Yeah but that's my point : Persuade action can always be accomplished through a lie, just promise something the character wants, and lie is just a penalty. Even if they know for sure 100% you cannot do it, it's only a penalty to their roll to persuade you. So if they success, you have to agree (albeit a Willpower point), because this is not subjected to Unacceptable Influence, while I believe it should be on some cases, and have some guidance on "Unaccepatble influence and lies" in a little blue encart or something like that.

                            I hope I make myself clear that I understand that the normal rules apply to lying. My point is that by its very nature, lies allows you to get through the social influence system because they fit the prerequisite that enables a successful social action at no cost from a "scenario perspective", other than knowing intimacies.

                            I'm not against lies on a complicated scheme to make a fun scenario about basically doing Ocean's 11 in an Imperial bank. I just have a problem with all lies having 0 distinction whatever their nature might be and all solved through the same mechanism that take only in account quantity (the malus) and not the quality (does it make sense in the context of the story ?)

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                            • Isn't that what the Decision Point is for? If the poor sap is out of wp you can even make their application of Resolve into a 2 point stunt of remembering their dead parent's funeral in crisp detail when they tell the Solar in no uncertain terms that no, getting the Solar a coffee will not resurrect their dead parent.

                              Also the lie still needs to be the appropriate intensity. If you want someone to risk their life out of the lie it might reunite them with a dead parent, you're gonna have to instill the lie and then upgrade it to Major and then Defining, which will require you to know your target and push the right buttons just like a honest interaction would. That's 3 consecutive Instill rolls at -5 (possibly more if you build your lie upon even more lies), and the target gets opportunities to reject your influence by paying willpower if they decide they've had enough of your bold faced lies.
                              Last edited by Epitome; 09-12-2019, 06:47 PM.

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                              • Originally posted by Chausse View Post

                                Yeah but that's my point : Persuade action can always be accomplished through a lie, just promise something the character wants, and lie is just a penalty. Even if they know for sure 100% you cannot do it, it's only a penalty to their roll to persuade you. So if they success, you have to agree (albeit a Willpower point), because this is not subjected to Unacceptable Influence, while I believe it should be on some cases, and have some guidance on "Unaccepatble influence and lies" in a little blue encart or something like that.

                                I hope I make myself clear that I understand that the normal rules apply to lying. My point is that by its very nature, lies allows you to get through the social influence system because they fit the prerequisite that enables a successful social action at no cost from a "scenario perspective", other than knowing intimacies.

                                I'm not against lies on a complicated scheme to make a fun scenario about basically doing Ocean's 11 in an Imperial bank. I just have a problem with all lies having 0 distinction whatever their nature might be and all solved through the same mechanism that take only in account quantity (the malus) and not the quality (does it make sense in the context of the story ?)

                                I think you still don't get it. Lies are NOT Persuade actions, Persuade actions are "Don't you have a heart? Look at the orphanage burning! Please, save the children!". And... there's no other prerequisite to Persuade actions than applying an Intimacy. It's literally the only prerequisite to attempting one. Lying is an Instill action that takes a penalty; the Persuade to build upon it is not penalized, only the Instill is. There's no such "Scenario perspective" requisite.

                                Now, sure, you could lie about your part in the deal, when it comes to BARGAIN actions. Because you're giving or promising something in return. But for Persuade, the lie was in Instilling the untrue Intimacy; the Persuade itself is just you leveraging that lie to make them do something.

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