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  • Originally posted by Alistair View Post
    Yeah, Appearance is less your actual looks and more how capable you are at exploiting them socially, how good you are at first impressions and body language, etc.
    I understand. It's just that I tend to associate the things you mention as Manipulation or Charisma linked. It made the Appearance stat's use less obvious to me.

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    • Who was Cynis's father and when was she(/he*) born?

      The Realm lists Cynis becoming a Great House in RY501 and it seems to take ~60 years for a scion get get their own house.

      *Cynis was a dude in 1E Core, but I think was made the Empress's daughter in Aspect Book Wood.


      Hi, I'm JohnDoe244. My posts represent my opinions, not facts.

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      • Originally posted by JohnDoe244 View Post
        Who was Cynis's father and when was she(/he*) born?

        The Realm lists Cynis becoming a Great House in RY501 and it seems to take ~60 years for a scion get get their own house.
        That seems like a solid timeline.

        I don't think anything ever have an identity to the father of Cynis; could be any one of numerous anonymous consorts or even a one-off lover.

        Originally posted by JohnDoe244
        *Cynis was a dude in 1E Core, but I think was made the Empress's daughter in Aspect Book Wood.
        Yeah, certainly no later than that when she was made Ragara Bhagwai's mother.


        I have approximate knowledge of many things.
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        • Wait, Cynis is Bhagwai's mother? Why is he a Ragara and not a Cynis then?


          I run... Lunars: The Apocalypse! Exalted 3rd edition. Fimbulwinter is upon the world as an Ice Age begins, and only six young Lunar heroes have a chance of saving humanity.

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          • Originally posted by The Wizard of Oz View Post
            Wait, Cynis is Bhagwai's mother? Why is he a Ragara and not a Cynis then?
            1e legacy bits where the author of AB:Wood probably didn't know about the matrilinear thing. Note also that the same book had his dad be Ragara, and I'd rather not think on that bit too much.


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            • Originally posted by The Wizard of Oz View Post
              Wait, Cynis is Bhagwai's mother? Why is he a Ragara and not a Cynis then?
              Cynis and Ragara agreed to hide the fact that she was his mother. Plus Ragara had more political power at this point -- Cynis didn't (officially) exist as a Great House yet (as mentioned, being elevated in 501, and Ragara Bhagwei having been born and studying at the Virsino by 385 when Mnemon witnessed the school's destruction - Bhagwei going on to found the Heptagram in 428).

              Hmm... guess that means Cynis must also have been born (reached puberty, bred with her half-brother, had the kid grow up and go to magic school) by 385.

              ...

              Which probably puts her birth within the Empress's marriage to Rawar. Ragara is the Empress's oldest surviving son, but I guess Cynis could have been born before him (being a daughter and not surviving) -- certainly she was born before Mnemon, so if not during the Empress's marriage to Rawar then predating said marriage.

              Do any canon sources confirm Cynis and Ragara are only half-siblings? Because the more I think about it...

              Unless... maybe she was Tepet's daughter? Then she'd be the right age to be banging Ragara, and the reason she didn't get her House until much later would be because she was running House Tepet?

              Originally posted by Isator Levi View Post
              I don't think anything ever have an identity to the father of Cynis; could be any one of numerous anonymous consorts or even a one-off lover.
              True.
              Last edited by JohnDoe244; 10-09-2019, 05:17 PM.


              Hi, I'm JohnDoe244. My posts represent my opinions, not facts.

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              • Originally posted by JohnDoe244 View Post
                Cynis and Ragara agreed to hide the fact that she was his mother. Plus Ragara had more political power at this point -- Cynis didn't exist as a Great House yet (as mentioned, being elevated in 501, and Ragara Bhagwei having been born and studying at the Virsino by 385 when Mnemon witnessed the school's destruction - the Heptagram opening in 428).

                Hmm... guess that means Cynis must also have been born (reached puberty, bred with her half-brother, had the kid grow up and go to magic school) by 385.

                ...

                Which puts her birth within the Empress's marriage to Rawar.

                Do any canon sources confirm Cynis and Ragara are only half-siblings? Because the more I think about it...
                Timeline stuff may have shifted. Note that birth fo Exalts and foundings of things got shuffled around in 3e and 1e's assumptions on the timeline (and thus where Ragara Baghwei fits in there) may be subject to change.


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                • Originally posted by Blaque View Post
                  Timeline stuff may have shifted. Note that birth fo Exalts and foundings of things got shuffled around in 3e and 1e's assumptions on the timeline (and thus where Ragara Baghwei fits in there) may be subject to change.
                  Mnemon's birth year hasn't changed (according to the timeline in The Realm), and she still studied at the Versino (What Fire Has Wrought). The Heptagram has still replaced the Versino (WFHW) some point after Mnemon's 15th birthday but before her 22nd, with the implication it was sooner rather than later (1E the Versino was destroyed when Mnemon was 16, so that fits).

                  Ragara Bhagwei might have been retconned (Cynis might no longer be his mother, he might not have founded the Heptagram). But that'd be a real kick in the teeth -- he's the coolest Dragon-Blooded.

                  Cynis's father and birth date is what I'm trying to establish. And until 3E retcons it, I say past fluff stands.

                  (Sesus now being younger than Mnemon messes up Ragara's early life a lot more.)

                  [Edit]

                  You know what? I'm happy with my headcanon on this. It was surprisingly easy to not only square this circle, but also fix another problem the 3E timeline was creating for my story.
                  Last edited by JohnDoe244; 10-09-2019, 05:52 PM.


                  Hi, I'm JohnDoe244. My posts represent my opinions, not facts.

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                  • Originally posted by Blaque View Post
                    Note also that the same book had his dad be Ragara, and I'd rather not think on that bit too much.
                    Eh, Third Edition thus far has maybe toned down references to incest in the Scarlet Dynasty, but still not exactly a stranger to it. Ragara Banoba is still in a relationship with the descendant of one of his siblings, and matriarch Sesus Raenyah is right there fuckin' her uncle.

                    Originally posted by JohnDoe244 View Post
                    Which probably puts her birth within the Empress's marriage to Rawar. Ragara is the Empress's oldest surviving son, but I guess Cynis could have been born before him (being a daughter and not surviving) -- certainly she was born before Mnemon, so if not during the Empress's marriage to Rawar then predating said marriage.

                    Do any canon sources confirm Cynis and Ragara are only half-siblings? Because the more I think about it...
                    I recall Aspect Book: Wood calling them half-siblings.

                    The Empress is certainly not supposed to have been exclusive to Rawar during their marriage, since for one thing it overlaps with her relationship with Nellens.

                    I'd personally be against there being any more notable children of Rawar besides Ragara and Mnemon, since I think that diminishes the significance of their relationship. I think it weakens the narrative of Mnemon being his closest blood relative who survived, his fellow product of the sorcery of the Scarlet Empress, if there's another such sibling who was ever around and founded her own Great House no less.

                    That said, I also feel as though the way that Ragara is currently written belies him having had such a relationship with a sister a bit. I think Bhagwai is part of Heirs to the Shogunate, so we'll see about that sooner or later; I don't think his character is wholly dependent on that part of the backstory if it should be dropped.


                    I have approximate knowledge of many things.
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                    • Originally posted by Isator Levi View Post
                      I recall Aspect Book: Wood calling them half-siblings.

                      The Empress is certainly not supposed to have been exclusive to Rawar during their marriage, since for one thing it overlaps with her relationship with Nellens.
                      Certainly the Empress took other lovers in that time. The 3E canon reads "Though the Empress cared deeply for Rawar, their relationship had hardly been exclusive. She drew little distinction between their children and the dozen or so she’d borne from other lovers."

                      So Cynis could easily be one of the dozen from "other lovers". There's no indication across editions that she's a child of Nellens.

                      Being the product of a nameless consort fits Cynis decadance.

                      Still, I've gone through Wood cover-to-cover Bhagwei and Banoba are definitely half-brothers. But Cynis and Ragara's relationship isn't codified. I prefer them as half-siblings, for all the reasons you listed.

                      But with Sesus's massive retcon (her new age -- gender being pretty meaningless), things are a lot neater in my headcanon if Cynis is a contemporary of Ragara.
                      Originally posted by Isator Levi View Post
                      I think Bhagwai is part of Heirs to the Shogunate, so we'll see about that sooner or later; I don't think his character is wholly dependent on that part of the backstory if it should be dropped.
                      The (small "d") dynastic interplay between characters is what makes the Scarlet Dynasty interesting. Through-out human history, royal bloodlines have trod a fine path between "purity" of the bloodline and degenerate inbreeding. This is writ large in Exalted where supernatural power is inherited. The delicate family tree and the nature of overlapping and conflicting loyalty is what makes Dragon-Blooded games special.

                      Even for someone like me who likes their games focused on a band of brothers crusading the Threshold against impossible odds, sanitizing Bhagwei's genealogy would be a keenly felt loss.

                      You're right, of course, that the genealogy of Bhagwei plays very little into who he is (a great healer, brilliant mind and headmaster of the Realm's magic school). But it's a massive hook for how the PCs can interact with him. I'd say it's far more important that he be a child of Cynis than that he found the Heptagram from a gameplay perspective -- but founding the Heptagram is a keystone if Bhagwei's character where Cynis is a footnote. If that makes sense? YMMV.

                      But we're moving out of "Ask a Question" territory now.


                      Hi, I'm JohnDoe244. My posts represent my opinions, not facts.

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                      • How do you handle Social Actions being legitimate when your anima flares and your use of Charms appears obvious ?

                        One of my players asked me this : When A tries to convince B with excellencies or Charms and his anima flares, it looks like to B that his will is being manipulated through supernatural force and then should feel wrong to B. I tried to explain that it's not like a Mind Control, that the anima is the scenery incarnating the natural magnitude and power of the protagonists and is not to be confused with some sort of Mind Control Effect, etc ... But in the end I felt like I was resorting : It's not Mind Control because the system says so, but yes you are making someone act out of their own will thanks to your surnatural power.

                        How do you handle or present it to your players ? Because I had some players being uncomfortable displaying their anima in a social action and I find a bit sad. It's supposed to be a grandiose moment of a demi-god touching the hearts of mortals by their presence to dramatically change them them, not some sort of "you do as I say because magic"

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                        • Sesus being the Empress' leash on Ragara is actually from the original 1e Dragon-Blooded book. Her age changing was to actually fix a bit of the timeline wherein Ragara was assassinating his siblings, Mnemon was one of the targets, yet somehow Ledaal and Sesus were chugging around in the interum. It's to make it the "gap" of the Empress' children between Ragara and Mnemon more realized, more or less. Basically taking a plot element literally not talked about since, and reworking it in the prosect of giving more variety in the Realm's history. It's actually not that big a change, just one tweaked for more setting context. Sesus as a person doesn't have much characterization anyways besides "Ragara's leash and founder of house" so not a lot was retconned. Her change is not nearly as dramatic I would think as Ledaal, Iselsi, or Tepet.

                          As for sanitizing things, I think mostly the Dynasty, while caring about bloodlines, also is ran by people who come from an Age that understood incest being stupid and bad for heatlh of most bloodlines. Even half-siblings as in the case of Ragara and Cynis until stated oterwise, is probably no bueno. I'm not sure it fits his MO either. If she was a daughter of the empress, she seems close-enough to the siblings post Sesus and Jurul to probably be on the "I would like to poison you but I can't" area of things. Also the Dynasty is probably aware enough about supernatural elements to the bloodline to not go all Hatsburg on everything. There's soemthing of emulating history and emulating history built on views of inheritence that educated folks in Creation are portrayed often as knowing better.


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                          • Originally posted by Chausse View Post
                            How do you handle Social Actions being legitimate when your anima flares and your use of Charms appears obvious ?
                            You can only convince someone to do something if it meshes with their Intimacies.

                            They can flare their anima and burn as many motes as they like... they can't get someone to do something they don't want to do.

                            If you see someone flaring their anima as they remind you of the thing you care about, you can see they really care about reminding you of the thing you care about... but it doesn't change the fact that you really care about whatever the Intimacy is.

                            Just like in real life. If you go to a car dealership and they smile at you, bring you drinks and flatter you then you KNOW they're trying to sell you a car... but you do need a car -- they can't mind control you into buying a car, the reason you're in the dealership in the first place is because you need a car. You can usually tell if someone is trying to convince you of something (real life or in game, Charms or not) and your Resolve represents your resistance to this. But it being obvious that someone is trying to convince you, rarely makes it less convincing.
                            Last edited by JohnDoe244; 10-10-2019, 08:19 AM.


                            Hi, I'm JohnDoe244. My posts represent my opinions, not facts.

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                            • Originally posted by Chausse View Post
                              How do you handle Social Actions being legitimate when your anima flares and your use of Charms appears obvious ?

                              One of my players asked me this : When A tries to convince B with excellencies or Charms and his anima flares, it looks like to B that his will is being manipulated through supernatural force and then should feel wrong to B. I tried to explain that it's not like a Mind Control, that the anima is the scenery incarnating the natural magnitude and power of the protagonists and is not to be confused with some sort of Mind Control Effect, etc ... But in the end I felt like I was resorting : It's not Mind Control because the system says so, but yes you are making someone act out of their own will thanks to your surnatural power.

                              How do you handle or present it to your players ? Because I had some players being uncomfortable displaying their anima in a social action and I find a bit sad. It's supposed to be a grandiose moment of a demi-god touching the hearts of mortals by their presence to dramatically change them them, not some sort of "you do as I say because magic"
                              I visualise it as the raw passion of their heart overflowing in a magical display. It's simply them pushing themselves to their utmost to give the greatest speech of their life. Doesn't mean the speech is mind-control.

                              Of course, if it's a Solar or Lunar anima, you may suddenly find that you're coming up against their intimacy vs Anathema, so I can see a reason not to flare that.


                              I run... Lunars: The Apocalypse! Exalted 3rd edition. Fimbulwinter is upon the world as an Ice Age begins, and only six young Lunar heroes have a chance of saving humanity.

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                              • Originally posted by Blaque View Post
                                As for sanitizing things, I think mostly the Dynasty, while caring about bloodlines, also is ran by people who come from an Age that understood incest being stupid and bad for heatlh of most bloodlines.
                                If you keep doing it across multiple generations, and even then it's a thing generally misunderstood and exaggerated by popular perceptions.

                                One generation of incest is fairly unlikely to cause any major disorders, especially if neither patent is carrying generic markers for such at the time of conception.

                                Originally posted by Blaque
                                I'm not sure it fits his MO either. If she was a daughter of the empress, she seems close-enough to the siblings post Sesus and Jurul to probably be on the "I would like to poison you but I can't" area of things.
                                Really, that doesn't exclude the possibility of him engaging in a sexual relationship with her for some reason, perhaps a bit unsavoury.

                                Originally posted by Blaque
                                There's soemthing of emulating history and emulating history built on views of inheritence that educated folks in Creation are portrayed often as knowing better.
                                History is one thing, but there's also the lurid roots of pulp fantasy.

                                But again, we already have an example of the Empress' granddaughter being married to the Empress' son.


                                I have approximate knowledge of many things.
                                Watch me play Dark Souls III (completed)
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