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  • Originally posted by Jefepato View Post
    How often is there literally no evidence of a problem? A casual observer may not recognize the importance of what he's seeing or feeling, but that doesn't mean a Solar won't put the pieces together given a chance. (If there's no evidence at all, I'm not sure why anyone would be investigating in the first place.)
    Not often, but it at least stops somebody from sending a letter to a solar just as a checkup, or for completely unrelated things, and them being able to instantly tell something about it.

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    • Yeah. It's not out of theme for solars to pull conclusions from info that's been badly corrupted or damaged. Like that linguistics charm that let's you badly defaced stone tablets.

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      • Originally posted by Accelerator View Post
        Yeah. It's not out of theme for solars to pull conclusions from info that's been badly corrupted or damaged. Like that linguistics charm that let's you badly defaced stone tablets.
        Yes but, pointedly, that charm does NOT let you read tablets that have been crushed into sand, or letters that have been burned to ashes. You can make out the barest traces of words which have been worn smooth, or see the otherwise invisible, or nearly invisible, traces of ink where there once was but isn’t anymore, but you can’t just take a scorched pile of ash and “because solar” read what it said when it was paper.

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        • I think it's perfectly possible make a perfect remote diagnosis power fit within Solar purview. For instance you could have the following Charm :

          Perspicacious Patient Follow Up Method

          Cost: 2m per point of penalty; Mins: Medicine 5, Essence 2
          Type: Supplemental, Stackable
          Keywords: Mute
          Duration: 1 remote diagnosis
          Prerequisite Charms: Flawless Diagnosis Technique

          Activate this charm before diagnosing a patient without having direct access to them to help you gleam information from an indirect source of information, such as an exchange of letters or a discussion with someone who has been with the patient. Through subtle shifts in tone, seemingly innocuous changes in the delivery, or small changes in the pen's pressure on the paper, the Solar unfailingly detects things which even the patient or the third party did not consciously notice themselves. Every 2 motes spent on this Charm requires 5 minutes of discussion or one written exchange, and reduces the penalty of the follow up diagnosis by 1. This Charm can be activated per increments of 2 motes - once the Solar has successfully removed all penalties associated with the distant diagnosis, they instinctively feel they are ready to make their diagnosis, thus the Storyteller should inform them that further activations are no longer needed.
          Last edited by Epitome; 10-13-2019, 07:36 PM.

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          • Originally posted by DrLoveMonkey View Post

            Yes but, pointedly, that charm does NOT let you read tablets that have been crushed into sand, or letters that have been burned to ashes. You can make out the barest traces of words which have been worn smooth, or see the otherwise invisible, or nearly invisible, traces of ink where there once was but isn’t anymore, but you can’t just take a scorched pile of ash and “because solar” read what it said when it was paper.

            No, but you can reconstruct the ash into the letter (Solar Craft) and then read it. Solars have themes other than "humans but way better", and ranged diagnosis is not anything that goes against them.

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            • Sagacious Reading of Intent asks you to make a Read Intentions rolls but then specifies that the roll is automatically successful. What is the point of the roll then? Are there strange Charm interactions which make that roll relevant in rare circumstances?

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              • Originally posted by Alistair View Post
                No, but you can reconstruct the ash into the letter (Solar Craft) and then read it. Solars have themes other than "humans but way better", and ranged diagnosis is not anything that goes against them.
                If you’re talking about Crack Mending Technique that’s not how that charm works. Burned paper is not the same as ash. I’m on my phone and can’t link things but google image search “burned paper” and you’ll find a lot of examples of what I’m talking about, they’re not ash piles. Which IS definitely miraculous, being able to restore a scorched piece of paper to its pristine original form, crisp and clean, but it doesn’t turn a little pile of cinders into an original document, or a puddle of melted slag into a sword, or a pile of sand into a tablet. It can turn a tablet that’s been shattered into a dozen pieces into the original, or fully fix a staff that’s been splintered down the middle.

                Solars do have themes beyond “human but better” but they’re by no means limitless. Go read the Apocryphal keyword in Dreams of the Solar Exalted and check out a few of the charms with that keyword to see what I’m talking about.

                As for ranged diagnosis, if you’ll go back and read I actually did say that it’s perfectly reasonable, but the limit on it is that there are just some things a solar needs to be present to discover, and the charm that lets them remotely diagnose shouldn’t let them overcome that, in exactly the same way that the solar investigation charm doesn’t allow that, and for the same reasons.

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                • Originally posted by Epitome View Post
                  Sagacious Reading of Intent asks you to make a Read Intentions rolls but then specifies that the roll is automatically successful. What is the point of the roll then?
                  Well, it is redundant, but its there if you want to use it. The roll cannot fail, but may have extra successes, which the storyteller might then use as a guide to how much detail or extraneous information to divulge.
                  Last edited by Greyman; 10-13-2019, 08:52 PM.

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                  • Originally posted by Epitome View Post
                    I think it's perfectly possible make a perfect remote diagnosis power fit within Solar purview. For instance you could have the following Charm :

                    Perspicacious Patient Follow Up Method

                    Cost: 2m per point of penalty; Mins: Medicine 5, Essence 2
                    Type: Supplemental, Stackable
                    Keywords: Mute
                    Duration: 1 remote diagnosis
                    Prerequisite Charms: Flawless Diagnosis Technique

                    Activate this charm before diagnosing a patient without having direct access to them to help you gleam information from an indirect source of information, such as an exchange of letters or a discussion with someone who has been with the patient. Through subtle shifts in tone, seemingly innocuous changes in the delivery, or small changes in the pen's pressure on the paper, the Solar unfailingly detects things which even the patient or the third party did not consciously notice themselves. Every 2 motes spent on this Charm requires 5 minutes of discussion or one written exchange, and reduces the penalty of the follow up diagnosis by 1. This Charm can be activated per increments of 2 motes - once the Solar has successfully removed all penalties associated with the distant diagnosis, they instinctively feel they are ready to make their diagnosis, thus the Storyteller should inform them that further activations are no longer needed.
                    That still feels unreasonable to me. If you talked to someone and said “Oh you saw Neven this morning? How is he?” And the girl you were taking to said “Seemed just fine to me.” Then suddenly you can tell by the way she said that that, in fact, Neven has a small painless rash between his shoulder blades that is the precursor to a terrible disease, and furthermore due to its rapid growth and single nucleation point it has likely been inflicted upon him by a disease god. Certainly as an Essence 2 charm that’s only two charms into the tree. Maybe at Essence 4-5 after building up to it with a series of charms, starting with one that removes penalties for diagnosing from just a secondhand account.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by DrLoveMonkey View Post

                      That still feels unreasonable to me. If you talked to someone and said “Oh you saw Neven this morning? How is he?” And the girl you were taking to said “Seemed just fine to me.” Then suddenly you can tell by the way she said that that, in fact, Neven has a small painless rash between his shoulder blades that is the precursor to a terrible disease, and furthermore due to its rapid growth and single nucleation point it has likely been inflicted upon him by a disease god. Certainly as an Essence 2 charm that’s only two charms into the tree. Maybe at Essence 4-5 after building up to it with a series of charms, starting with one that removes penalties for diagnosing from just a secondhand account.
                      The point of this example Charm is to force the interaction to be more than the 5 word blurbs you use as your worst case example. To get anything out of Neven's friend, you have to make them talk for at least 5 minutes, and even that will only reduce the penalty by only 1. Given we're talking about an almost undetectable symptom, the penalty is probably more like -8, so you'll have to have an in-depth discussion with Neven's friend lasting at least 40 minutes.

                      While discussing their last fishing trip with Neven the friend might describe events in a way where Neven never made rash movements with his shoulders. His general tone when talking about Neven might inform you that Neven is the kind of person who bears pain silently without telling others about it. Then while talking about last year's festival the friend's tone might hush a bit, prompting you to question him until you realize there was an unnatural shadow that passed over the town squarre during the festival. Prodding him about his beliefs might get you to learn about all the local deities, including a disease god which everyone tries to avoid. Finally while discussing drunken antics Neven's friend might recall one time when Neven drunkenly staggered away from town and towards a shrine to the Disease god, only coming back the next morning.

                      Edit : You can consider this Charm as a series of special Profile Character actions done through a proxy, where completing the profile action reduces the penalty by 1. If you're worried about edge cases where a witness cannot possibly provide enough information, then just add that a third party can only provide (strongest intimacy towards the target) + 1 penalty reductions, and allow the questioning of multiple witnesses as part of the diagnosis process. So in this example of a -8 penalty you would need to talk with 2 people who have a Major Tie towards Neven for 20 minutes each to make your diagnosis.
                      Last edited by Epitome; 10-14-2019, 09:31 AM.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by DrLoveMonkey View Post

                        That still feels unreasonable to me. If you talked to someone and said “Oh you saw Neven this morning? How is he?” And the girl you were taking to said “Seemed just fine to me.” Then suddenly you can tell by the way she said that that, in fact, Neven has a small painless rash between his shoulder blades that is the precursor to a terrible disease, and furthermore due to its rapid growth and single nucleation point it has likely been inflicted upon him by a disease god. Certainly as an Essence 2 charm that’s only two charms into the tree. Maybe at Essence 4-5 after building up to it with a series of charms, starting with one that removes penalties for diagnosing from just a secondhand account.

                        You know what else feels unreasonable? Asking people to spend dozens upon dozens of XP for something that will effectively barely come up in play and should not require anywhere near the investment you ask for. The Lunar Exalted can scent disease and magic in people and read the heart's true feelings, the Dragon-Blooded can see traces of anima and sense Jade or elemental manifestations around them, and the Solar Exalted can see through any kind of magic or artifice. Compared to that magnitude, detecting undetectable diseases at long range feels barely E2, with maybe a single prerequisite in Flawless Diagnosis and that's it. And most importantly, you'd grant them that super niche capability without requiring a character based on that concept to invest stupid amounts of XP on something that effectively barely matters in most games.

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                        • Originally posted by Epitome View Post
                          Edit : You can consider this Charm as a series of special Profile Character actions done through a proxy, where completing the profile action reduces the penalty by 1. If you're worried about edge cases where a witness cannot possibly provide enough information, then just add that a third party can only provide (strongest intimacy towards the target) + 1 penalty reductions, and allow the questioning of multiple witnesses as part of the diagnosis process. So in this example of a -8 penalty you would need to talk with 2 people who have a Major Tie towards Neven for 20 minutes each to make your diagnosis.
                          That might work I’m still wary of it, and I’m thinking maybe Essence 3? I’m not strong on this point for no reason by the way. Solars not being able to do things like return ashes to a fully restored letter is one of the things that actually keeps Solar power and themes in check. If a Dynast general receives a missive from the Blessed Isle, then it is reasonably important that a solar who wants to read it get to it before the DB does and then burns it into nothing. It is important that the Investigation charm Mind-Manse Palace only lets them make connections with information they’ve already gathered, and doesn’t let them pull new info from nothing. Which is good, because Solars have SO much straightforward power that if they start applying it in whatever way you can think of not only does that make other exalted into even bigger chumps because their weird special ways of doing inhuman logically impossible things just aren’t special anymore, but it also takes away one of the only challenges to playing a Solar, which is figuring out how to apply your utterly unstoppable strength and skill.

                          Originally posted by Alistair View Post
                          You know what else feels unreasonable? Asking people to spend dozens upon dozens of XP for something that will effectively barely come up in play and should not require anywhere near the investment you ask for. The Lunar Exalted can scent disease and magic in people and read the heart's true feelings, the Dragon-Blooded can see traces of anima and sense Jade or elemental manifestations around them, and the Solar Exalted can see through any kind of magic or artifice. Compared to that magnitude, detecting undetectable diseases at long range feels barely E2, with maybe a single prerequisite in Flawless Diagnosis and that's it. And most importantly, you'd grant them that super niche capability without requiring a character based on that concept to invest stupid amounts of XP on something that effectively barely matters in most games.
                          Power isn’t the only issue here, a charm that lets a solar rip their own hand off and skitter around to act on its own isn’t exactly a world shattering ability, but if Solars even get that ability at all it’s not low essence and it’s not without prerequisites. In my opinion that particular effect would just be a flat “no” anyway, I don’t care how useful it is or isn’t compared to other Solar powers. Like the Solar flight charm Eagle Wing Style, it’s essence 3 with four prerequisite charms, costs motes every turn you use it, requires you to lock on to an aerial target, and can’t help you recover if you start falling, but the DB flight charm has zero prerequisites, and doesn’t have any restrictions on how you use it. Why should a Solar have to invest in five times as many charms for an effect that’s only better when used in combat to chase down airborne foes?

                          There doesn’t have to be a list of useless charms leading up to as-though-I’d-done-a-thorough-physical-myself at range. You could have charms that let you apply treatment at range, give treatment to multiple people at once through it, but that’s another one you’d have to watch, Solars don’t have a charm that cures an entire city of plague and, again, there’s a reason for that. Solars specifically don’t have a “create utopia” charm, and never will.

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                          • Originally posted by DrLoveMonkey View Post

                            That might work I’m still wary of it, and I’m thinking maybe Essence 3? I’m not strong on this point for no reason by the way. Solars not being able to do things like return ashes to a fully restored letter is one of the things that actually keeps Solar power and themes in check.
                            Perhaps, but I think that "diagnose an ailment based on 2nd-hand information" is not nearly at the power level of "restore a pile of ashes to its original form as a letter". The former is something that real doctors can actually do, so a charm to let you do it better and more quickly seems pretty fitting for Solar Essence 1 or 2. And I don't really feel it's getting into the "Solars are unstoppable" territory you're mentioning - it still has some notable limits, as Epitome wrote it. It's useless without those 2nd hand sources, for one thing. And in Creation, where travel and communication times are generally limited to the speed of a running horse at best, those 2nd hand sources are generally going to be pretty close to the patient, so you're probably not saving a whole lot of time.

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                            • Originally posted by Kelly Pedersen View Post

                              Perhaps, but I think that "diagnose an ailment based on 2nd-hand information" is not nearly at the power level of "restore a pile of ashes to its original form as a letter". The former is something that real doctors can actually do, so a charm to let you do it better and more quickly seems pretty fitting for Solar Essence 1 or 2. And I don't really feel it's getting into the "Solars are unstoppable" territory you're mentioning - it still has some notable limits, as Epitome wrote it. It's useless without those 2nd hand sources, for one thing. And in Creation, where travel and communication times are generally limited to the speed of a running horse at best, those 2nd hand sources are generally going to be pretty close to the patient, so you're probably not saving a whole lot of time.
                              Right, I’m totally on board with second hand diagnosis. Somebody sends you a letter saying they’re friend is looking a little pale, and he’s maybe having some joint pain, which are generic symptoms of a thousand different illnesses, and could so easily be the result of two completely unrelated ones, but a Solar with their charms can hear that description and actually, miraculously, know exactly what’s wrong with them as though they’d given them a complete magically assisted physical examination. There are, however, some illnesses, real, fictional or magical, who’s early stages are asympomatic, and in that case you’re just not able to get that info second hand. I don’t even understand why this is such a big deal. The only time it matters is when you’re trying to diagnose somebody who either feels fine and is just trying to make sure they don’t have one of those early stage illnesses, or if you’re just off chance diagnosing somebody with one of those illnesses from second hand info for some reason.

                              It’s exactly like the investigation charm that lets you case a scene based on second hand knowledge, or the charm that lets you read paper that the ink’s been washed away. There needs to be something there, the tiniest thing, totally superhuman ability to latch on to, but if there’s absolutely nothing, then there’s nothing and you’ve got to figure out a different way to do it. Either that or you’re getting into the weird edge case solar charms with a high essence and/or lots of prerequisite charms that start letting go of the idea that there needs to be a logical connection between what they’re doing and the result they get.

                              Edit: I should also say that I do like Epitome’s idea of penalty reduction with more info, just not the diagnosis from no evidence.
                              Last edited by DrLoveMonkey; 10-14-2019, 04:35 PM.

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                              • >DB flight Charm has no restrictions
                                >Flight is only good to chase airborne foes

                                I don't even know where to begin to break it to you here, but the DB flight Charm is so restricted that it barely has any use in combat without instantly crashing yourself, and outside combat you could get the same kind of thing but better from Essence 1 by getting Sorcery and Cirrus Skiff. As in, way way better. In fact, better in combat too anyway. And flight has way more applications than airborne foes, and you know that. (Notice a theme with DB Charms there~? Cough cough raging fire dragon spirit cough cough)

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