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  • Originally posted by Kelly Pedersen View Post

    That's almost the reverse of how it's supposed to work, in fact - Counterattack charms specifically can't be used in response to charms with the Counterattack or Clash keywords. The point of Counterattack charms is that they let you attack out of turn and interrupt the opponent's attack. Unlike clashes, which change the attack into a contest of combat skill against combat skill, counterattacks still target the opponent's defense. Even though, technically, both attacks in a counterattack situation are happening on the same tick, they're not a clash.

    Basically, clashes happen when two fighters strike at the same instant, and the question of who hits whom boils down to pure offensive skill. They can be done by mortals. Counterattacks, on the other hand, are only created by charms and similar magic, and represent a character being attacked, and reacting to that so quickly that their response hits in the same moment that their foe's blow lands.
    Thanks to you and vwllss trnt prncss !

    I have been at college for 7-8 years, though with mathematics not my fortè, Exalted mechanics can be frustrating at times (when I even find the correct rules in the book), since the rule book is so horribly written, making me feel spectacularly dim at times. Those who wrote it gave us a nice rule set (when I can understand it, I tend to like it) and of course, the setting we all love dearly. There is no escaping that the writing of the rules in Core is abominable and the worst I have seen ever, in any RPG, and I have played a legion of them in my lifetime.

    I truly appreciate it that you guys are taking the time to explain these mechanics to someone who is perhaps a significantly better Story Teller and role player than he is a master of mechanics.

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    • Originally posted by vwllss trnt prncss View Post
      In this case, it's the charm text stating "incoming decisive attack" that restricts the Charm to functioning only against decisive attacks.
      Whoops, sorry, you're right - reading comprehension fail on my part!

      Originally posted by vwllss trnt prncss
      That said, you've raised an excellent point regarding the Decisive-Only keyword. The text of that keyword is "Decisive-only: If it’s an attack Charm, the Charm can only be used with a decisive attack. If it is a defensive Charm, it can only be used to defend against a decisive attack." Is a Clash Charm an attack Charm, a defensive Charm, or both? Following from that, does the keyword mean the created clash attack has to be decisive, mean the clashed attack has to be decisive, or both? I don't have an answer.
      Personally, I'm inclined to read the Decisive-Only keyword in its attack meaning, rather than defensive. Clashes are attacks - if you succeed on one, you get to damage your opponent, after all. And that would be more consistent with other charms enhancing clashes, I think. For instance, in the Brawl example we've been using, with Force-Rending Strike, I'd be okay with a character who pulled it off successfully activating Heaven Thunder Hammer. Whereas if the clash was Melee-based, I wouldn't allow the Melee specialist to activate Heavenly Guardian Defense.

      But it is ambiguous. I'll throw the question to the devs.

      Edited to add: Actually, some Googling says they've already answered this one. The Decisive-Only keyword on a clash means that the person activating the charm needs to make a decisive attack, not that it can only be used in response to a decisive. See this response for confirmation.
      Last edited by Kelly Pedersen; 11-13-2019, 11:08 PM.

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      • Sending you both metaphorical flowers. You have helped me a lot by continuing your discussion.

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        • Vance also responded about this specific charm here- http://forum.theonyxpath.com/forum/m...49#post1102049.

          Although, that is RAW, looking at some of the other inconsistencies with Brawl, and hearing that it was one of the first charm trees, and it seeming to lean on Clashes for defense, I'm curious if that was the original author's intent. Was Decisive-Only included as a keyword because that charm has the clause about only being used against decisive attacks? There is a fair amount of repetition in Keywords and rule text, so the fact that they have both doesn't really assuage my suspicions.

          I think I looked at it a few years ago to see how Brawl changes if you allow Force-Rending Strike to use a Withering Attack, but I don't recall off the top of my head if it shored up a glaring flaw in Brawl, or if it was OP.

          Edit: Just wanted to do my semi-annual plug for using Nishkriya to search the Dev Threads, just pull up the thread itself instead of the feed, and every post will (slowly) load on one page, and can be easily ctrl+f'd.

          Thread 1- http://nishkriya.com/Threads/Details/10319
          Thread 2- http://www.nishkriya.com/Threads/Details/10470
          Last edited by MoroseMorgan; 11-14-2019, 01:12 PM.


          Raksha are my fae-vorite.

          Reincarnation of magnificentmomo.

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          • As far as I have noticed, all Clash charms are Decisive-only. I personally think this is an intended design decision to prevent easily spammable Withering based clashes, as they have a significant advantage compared to Decisive ones due to including accuracy in the attack roll as well as the fact that they also do not cause initiative reset.
            Last edited by ikeulhu; 11-14-2019, 02:26 PM.

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            • Originally posted by ikeulhu View Post
              As far as I have noticed, all Clash charms are Decisive-only. I personally think this is an intended design decision to prevent easily spammable Withering based clashes, as they have a significant advantage compared to Decisive ones due to including accuracy in the attack roll as well as the fact that they also do not cause initiative reset.
              I would like to add that the charm Water Incites Fire to a Riot of Clouds is a withering reflexive clash that doesn’t count as your attack for the turn and it is extremely powerful for that effect alone. It lets you get a fantastic defense that also hurts your attacker and creates a wide area environmental effect that gives initiative to all your allies.

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              • Wow, that is pretty nice. Assuming that is in the DB book, which I have not looked at too closely yet.

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                • I believe also the Charm of the Heaven and Earth Gauntlets (Artefact 3 in Arms of the Chosen) has a Charm that goes withering but I'm not sure anymore if you also gain the initiative.


                  My homebrew (Leave comments if you want to help improve) : A quick recap of all the pools and stats for Quick Exalted 3E characters

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                  • Originally posted by ikeulhu View Post
                    As far as I have noticed, all Clash charms are Decisive-only. I personally think this is an intended design decision to prevent easily spammable Withering based clashes, as they have a significant advantage compared to Decisive ones due to including accuracy in the attack roll as well as the fact that they also do not cause initiative reset.
                    Not all Clash-keyworded charms are Decisive-Only. Solar Archery has Heavens Crash Down, which is actually Withering-Only, Brawl has Blade-Rebuking Wrath, which is Uniform, and Snake Style has Snake Strikes the Heel, which is Dual. Admittedly, all of those have special effects that mean the clashing character doesn't gain initiative from a withering clash. However, Dragon-Bloods get a couple of non-Decisive-Only Clash charms that do provide initiative, as do Lunars (as of the charms in the Kickstarter preview manuscript). It is true that withering clashes that inflict initiative damage do tend to be rarer, though, so even if they're not outright banned, I think it's definitely a good idea to design them carefully for balance.

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                    • Originally posted by ikeulhu View Post
                      Wow, that is pretty nice. Assuming that is in the DB book, which I have not looked at too closely yet.
                      Yep, DB archery also has one in the form of Dragonfly Finds Mate, which allows the reflexive clashing of ranged attacks.

                      There’s a catch though, because neither of them actually give you the initiative that you deal in damage, which is something that helps balance them. The archery one doesn’t even deal damage at all, it just applies a -3 onslaught penalty and it’s still worth it.

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                      • There doesn't appear to be a Decisive-Only restriction on the Clash from Ascendant Battle Visage, but it also uses up your action.


                        Raksha are my fae-vorite.

                        Reincarnation of magnificentmomo.

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                        • Has anyone made good tables or systems for, say, advancing technology in Exalted?

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                          • What sort of things do you mean?


                            I run... Lunars: The Apocalypse! Exalted 3rd edition. Fimbulwinter is upon the world as an Ice Age begins, and only six young Lunar heroes have a chance of saving humanity.

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                            • Originally posted by The Wizard of Oz View Post
                              What sort of things do you mean?
                              Well, I'm fairly sure that I'm not the first person who knows about exalted who wants to play 'starting up the industrial revolution' or 'invent new things'. So, anyone done that before, or had plans for it? I mean, I'm not the one who's planning to one day make elemental steam engines, right?

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                              • I think you can probably do a lot better than just copying real tech. Who needs a steam engine when you can fuel your vehicles with the laughter of children?

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