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  • Originally posted by Isator Levi View Post
    It sounds to me more like a reference to English translations of a Chinese Buddhist concept of the afterlife. As the movie says, Chinese have a lot of Hells.

    Indeed, I think Malfeas itself is modelled a bit more on those (at least as they were portrayed in World of Darkness games) crossed over a bit with Druhim Vanashta from the Flat Earth books than the Christian Hell. Still a kind of spiritual plane of torment, but the details differed.

    ...
    Caress of a 1,000 Hells is as noted, a reference to Chinese stuff. It's not even the first the term "Thousand Hells" has shown up in something White Wolf related. This was actually the title of the second expansion book for the Kindred of the East line (The Thousand Hells). Malfeas was never meant to invoke Hell in the sense of a place where human souls go. It's a place for non-human entities live in an alien and hostile to human environment, drawing on Fat Earth's Underearth and the Umbral Realm of Malfeas from the World of Darkness. Jenna Moran has even had comments that some of the demons in there were written the way they were to encoruage Flat Earth-like weirdness, like the neomah and their ability to amke folks with especially exotic pedigrees.

    Originally posted by Isator Levi View Post
    Still, patrician would be one of those words that accumulates meaning beyond its original context or general etymology. Most people hear it, they're not going to be thinking about the fact that it contains the root word pater, they're just going to go to a generic term for somebody of an old money upper class style. That is the context in which it's used in Exalted, hence it has no deeper connotations.
    For my own context there, I remember the castes of patrician and pleb since like, high school in the early 00s but it didn't click for me it had anything to do wtih the Latin term for me unitl the last year. It's just a different term in modern English than it was in Rome for a lot of folks, even when describing Roman society.


    And stuff.
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    • {placeholder}
      Last edited by Isator Levi; 12-19-2019, 09:24 AM.


      I have approximate knowledge of many things.
      Watch me play Dark Souls III (completed)
      https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLDtbr08HW8RW4jOHN881YA3yRZBV4lpYw Watch me play Breath of the Wild (updated 12/03)

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      • Well... the Patricians are second-class citizens to the Dynasts. The daughters of the empress are the ruling class. The fathers of the mortal aristocrats are glorified pencil pushers. And the principle difference is the ability to birth Dragon-Blooded. I think Patrician works. *shrug*

        As for previous editions pumping out more male NPCs, I think that has the Guybrush Problem (the Dynasts are the baddies: "look at our progressive RPG where the evil empire is ruled by incompetent women -- go beat them up").

        I think the 3E presentation is better (than, say, House of the Bull God -- which, to be fair, is set in a patriachal threshold kingdom. If the USA discovered a hidden tribe of Amazons, they'd send female ambassadors regardless of the fact that most US ambassadors are male: I see the Realm as savvy enough to play the same game).


        Hi, I'm JohnDoe244. My posts represent my opinions, not facts.

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        • Originally posted by JohnDoe244 View Post
          As for previous editions pumping out more male NPCs, I think that has the Guybrush Problem (the Dynasts are the baddies: "look at our progressive RPG where the evil empire is ruled by incompetent women -- go beat them up").
          If that was the goal they failed miserably. There's a lot more men who were the best person for the job vs. women who were born into positions of power or slept with the right people.

          Originally posted by JohnDoe244
          I think the 3E presentation is better (than, say, House of the Bull God -- which, to be fair, is set in a patriachal threshold kingdom.
          Harborhead? The place that was ruled by a daughter of Ahlat (until the Realm killed her) and is best known for its warrior women?


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          • Originally posted by JohnDoe244 View Post
            If the USA discovered a hidden tribe of Amazons, they'd send female ambassadors regardless of the fact that most US ambassadors are male
            The famously culturally sensitive United States.

            Originally posted by JohnDoe244
            I see the Realm as savvy enough to play the same game).
            Disregarding the question of whether or not the Realm is any more culturally sensitive, I don't think that really works as an explanation for something like the evacuation policies of their garrison.


            I have approximate knowledge of many things.
            Watch me play Dark Souls III (completed)
            https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLDtbr08HW8RW4jOHN881YA3yRZBV4lpYw Watch me play Breath of the Wild (updated 12/03)

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            • Originally posted by Isator Levi View Post

              Disregarding the question of whether or not the Realm is any more culturally sensitive, I don't think that really works as an explanation for something like the evacuation policies of their garrison.
              Well, The Women are far more valuable than the Men, and Children should be protected. That does not mean that Women Warriors are any less competent than the males... though I am not yet sure whether the writing for that is more or less enlightened... jury is still out, but I am hopeful.


              The problem with defending the purity of the English language is that English is about as pure as a cribhouse whore. We don't just borrow words; on occasion, English has pursued other languages down alleyways to beat them unconscious and rifle their pockets for new vocabulary. - James. D. Nicoll

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              • Originally posted by Isator Levi View Post
                The famously culturally sensitive United States.
                The US in general is not, but give credit where it’s due United States diplomats are competent. They’re not like, heroically dashing around the globe defending freedom and the downtrodden at all costs but if they sent an all female envoy to treat with Saudi Arabia it wouldn’t be because they’re clueless on Saudi gender politics. Of course I don’t expect the Realm to have a policy of withholding foreign aid from countries that exhibit human rights violations or anything like that but they’re at least good at convincing people to do what they want.

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                • Originally posted by Lioness View Post
                  If that was the goal they failed miserably. There's a lot more men who were the best person for the job vs. women who were born into positions of power or slept with the right people.
                  I'm not sure I'm parsing this properly.

                  My point is that the Realm is an evil empire and the people in positions of power are generally incompetents whom the PCs must overthrow. Presenting these evil, incompetent people as male is a lot more socially acceptable than presenting them as female.


                  Harborhead? The place that was ruled by a daughter of Ahlat (until the Realm killed her) and is best known for its warrior women?
                  Harborhead. The place that puts rape victims to death, ruled by a male god who demands that his female worshippers either forsake his blessings or reserve themselves sexually for him. First advertised with a shirtless man with rippling abs.

                  Yeah. That one.

                  Note that I'm just justifying the observations made by others. For me the most noteworthy Deeb in HotBG was Mnemon Peasa who was a good cipher for actual Deeb PCs achieving success in the Threshold: she was a perfect character to riff off.

                  I don't think the presentation was particularly egregious. But I didn't want to dismiss Clophiroth's concerns. The Realm's matrilinity doesn't necessitate a matriachal society (see also: Judaism). But I think the past presentations of the Realm make sense.
                  Last edited by JohnDoe244; 12-19-2019, 03:04 PM.


                  Hi, I'm JohnDoe244. My posts represent my opinions, not facts.

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                  • Originally posted by JohnDoe244 View Post
                    Harborhead. The place that puts rape victims to death, ruled by a male god who demands that his female worshippers either forsake his blessings or reserve themselves sexually for him. First advertised with a shirtless man with rippling abs.

                    Yeah. That one.
                    Putting rape victims to death isn't something that existed prior to MoEP: Infernals, Scavenger Sons actually talks about the kind of revenge they take upon enemies known to have violated one of the Royal Guard. Also the Brides of Ahlat and their vows don't seem to contribute towards an overall low opinion of women (indeed, the reverse seems to be true).

                    Is Ahlat a positive force on their culture? God no. However, you were literally conflating a female satrap in Harborhead with the United States sending a male ambassador to meet Amazons and that just doesn't add up with any of what's in HotBG or what came before it.




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                    Please spare a thought for updating the Exalted wiki.

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                    • I now imagine Harborhead with vocal chauvinists getting angry at the Realm's female representitives telling them to get back to the battlefield like god intended.


                      success is the ability to go from one failure to the next without any loss of enthusiasm

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                      • Originally posted by JohnDoe244 View Post
                        The Realm's matrilinity doesn't necessitate a matriachal society (see also: Judaism).
                        That would be true, but Exalted: the Dragon Blooded also described it as a society in which women predominate in positions of power and men have a glass ceiling, which just did not come through elsewhere.

                        And then there are things like Cainan remembering his father having been violent at suspicions of his wife not being his children, or the depiction of the female fleet admirals, and it runs a lot more to a trajectory of writers elsewhere going off of what was typical rather than something consistent with the established baseline.

                        The Realm was certainly written in many other respects to not come across as intended to be wholly incompetent.


                        I have approximate knowledge of many things.
                        Watch me play Dark Souls III (completed)
                        https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLDtbr08HW8RW4jOHN881YA3yRZBV4lpYw Watch me play Breath of the Wild (updated 12/03)

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                        • Originally posted by Lioness View Post
                          Putting rape victims to death isn't something that existed prior to MoEP: Infernals, Scavenger Sons actually talks about the kind of revenge they take upon enemies known to have violated one of the Royal Guard. Also the Brides of Ahlat and their vows don't seem to contribute towards an overall low opinion of women (indeed, the reverse seems to be true).

                          Is Ahlat a positive force on their culture? God no. However, you were literally conflating a female satrap in Harborhead with the United States sending a male ambassador to meet Amazons and that just doesn't add up with any of what's in HotBG or what came before it.
                          I think we're moving out of Ask a Question, Get an Answer territory now.

                          I think the presentation makes sense. Other people disagree. That's ok in my book -- you can not like the presentation of the Realm two editions ago if you like. I prefer the 3E presentation (over all) myself.

                          I'm happy to discuss this further in another thread, but as this is old fluff that almost certainly won't apply to Harborhead's 3E write up, I'm not sure anyone is that invested in this to be honest.

                          The Amazon Ambassador thing was a parenthetical throw-away. My main point is that it's ok Patricians aren't Matricians.
                          Last edited by JohnDoe244; 12-19-2019, 04:15 PM.


                          Hi, I'm JohnDoe244. My posts represent my opinions, not facts.

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                          • Originally posted by The Hug Ninja View Post
                            I now imagine Harborhead with vocal chauvinists getting angry at the Realm's female representitives telling them to get back to the battlefield like god intended.

                            "Why can´t you go to the battlefield and raid cows, like your sister and mother? You are ashaming the family"

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                            • It seems a bit cynical on the such people as think it's important to be "progressive" in art etc*, that they would dismiss a setting with lots of active powerful female characters who offer agency and representation, just because they were mostly fairly bad antagonists.

                              *Notwithstanding whether this is correct or not, notwithstanding whether Exalted does this or not, etcetc.

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                              • Dynasts are corrupt more than they are incompetent. The running plot through the fictions in The Realm supplement is that a shadowy cabal of Dynasts are tearing up their little section of the empire for fun and profit. The DBs there are either manipulating a great house into eating parts of itself, forming a noose around a treasonous conspiracy, or diplomatically guiding peasants toward a revolt. You could maybe make a case for the Dragonblooded patrician getting captured by bandits, but she’s not a Dynast, she was never brought up to be anything other than a quill jockey bureaucrat, fighting off hardened bandits isn’t really her area.

                                It’s good for the Solars and Lunars either way, that magistrate might be out hunting a newly exalted Solar if it wasn’t for the damned conspiracy back home.

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