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  • Originally posted by Deamonlight View Post
    I just wanted to add, there are demons who eat people on one layer and spit them back up on another. You can leap off a layer to another below. At some point, if you are too "Low" you can find pools of acid, or even an ocean of it. Also, can ignore basic geometry and build impossible buildings and connect layers in ways that would boggle the mind of mortals. So it is easy for demons to move about or reach where they want to reach. But it takes a lifetime of knowledge to really navigate. Also, the layers somehow all connect to the same desert. Yeah, normal logic need not apply.
    Yeah, I'll just put them as Escher-eque painting thingy.

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    • Originally posted by Verzio View Post
      Well, to drag out the example of Ysyr again:

      So, in a whole city of people who have been attuned to sorcery, "only a handful can" become sorcerers.

      What exactly that means is not explicit, but I think the most logical exegesis is that to become a sorcerer, you 1) have to be attuned by some means to the power of sorcery, and 2) you have to have some other quality or qualities of person (drive, insight, openness to discarding preconceptions, etc.) to be able to direct that power. And that the first of those is actually the lesser hurdle.
      The Corebook states:

      "All paths [to sorcery] demand effort, dedication, and the willingness to abandon old views and deeply-held beliefs."

      Whilst the devs have said not everyone can become a sorcerer, that's what the published canon says.

      It's easy to see why driven Exalted (like Leviathan and Ma-Ha-Suchi) might not be willing to abandon their deepy held beliefs. And it's easy to see why mortals focused on surviving until tomorrow might not be able to focus on learning sorcery (which the Corebook likens to climbing a mountain).

      But that's not the same thing as large swaths of the population being flat unable to learn sorcery as some kind of metaphysical property intrinsic to them. It's their own values which stop them and environmental factors -- both of which can be overcome. It's not a matter of squibs and mudbloods.
      Last edited by JohnDoe244; 12-31-2019, 08:44 AM.


      Hi, I'm JohnDoe244. My posts represent my opinions, not facts.

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      • Originally posted by JohnDoe244 View Post
        The Corebook states:

        "All paths [to sorcery] demand effort, dedication, and the willingness to abandon old views and deeply-held beliefs."
        A statement that those things are necessary is not a statement that they are sufficient.

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        • Originally posted by Verzio View Post

          A statement that those things are necessary is not a statement that they are sufficient.
          Be very careful people I think I just spotted a logician in its natural habitat. Try to not disturb him as they are very rare !


          My homebrew (Leave comments if you want to help improve) : A quick recap of all the pools and stats for Quick Exalted 3E characters

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          • Originally posted by Verzio View Post

            A statement that those things are necessary is not a statement that they are sufficient.
            Absolutely true.

            Can you point me at any published statement that either explicitly or implicitly expresses another requisite for learning sorcery? I can't find one in the published canon.

            Your own example of Ysyr and your own inference ("drive, insight, openness to discarding preconceptions, etc.") both seem fully covered by that passage in the Corebook.


            Hi, I'm JohnDoe244. My posts represent my opinions, not facts.

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            • Originally posted by JohnDoe244 View Post
              Your own example of Ysyr and your own inference ("drive, insight, openness to discarding preconceptions, etc.") both seem fully covered by that passage in the Corebook.
              If that's the conclusion you draw from the quoted passage on Ysyr, then I'd say, no, there's nothing I could possibly quote to you that would, by your standard, implicitly express another requisite for learning sorcery.

              It seems to me to be an obviously unnatural, strained interpretation to try to claim that Ysyr's people are not more likely to be sorcerers than people from other lands, or that the body-mutating force that attunes them to sorcery does so because it makes them higher in "effort, dedication, and the willingness to abandon old views and deeply-held beliefs" than people elsewhere. But if you don't think it is, I can't imagine what could possibly convince you otherwise.

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              • My assumption was that Ysyr has a higher than normal percentage of sorcerers. Enough to build an entire ruling class out of, but still nowhere near 100% of the population.

                "Attuned" doesn't mean "will always be able to get sorcery".

                And such extreme measures are not normally required. Instead, being able to learn sorcery is more akin to being able to learn to juggle, or being good at maths. Some people get it, some just... don't.

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                • Originally posted by Verzio View Post
                  If that's the conclusion you draw from the quoted passage on Ysyr, then I'd say, no, there's nothing I could possibly quote to you that would, by your standard, implicitly express another requisite for learning sorcery.

                  It seems to me to be an obviously unnatural, strained interpretation to try to claim that Ysyr's people are not more likely to be sorcerers than people from other lands, or that the body-mutating force that attunes them to sorcery does so because it makes them higher in "effort, dedication, and the willingness to abandon old views and deeply-held beliefs" than people elsewhere. But if you don't think it is, I can't imagine what could possibly convince you otherwise.
                  I suspect we misunderstand each other.

                  You said, and I quote:

                  " to become a sorcerer, you 1) have to be attuned by some means to the power of sorcery,"

                  I agree with you.

                  This is the warping effect of Ysyr. In game terms, it is your Sorcerous Initation. Like Scared by Nightmares, or Pact With Mara. You need something to initate you into sorcery.

                  But that is not enough. Just being in Ysyr doesn't make you a sorcerer. There's a point number 2:

                  "2) you have to have some other quality or qualities of person (drive, insight, openness to discarding preconceptions, etc.) to be able to direct that power. And that the first of those is actually the lesser hurdle."

                  I still agree with you.

                  This is the point I directly quoted from the Corebook and the reason why everyone in Ysyr isn't a sorcerer.

                  As well have having someone or something initiate you into sorcery, you also need "effort, dedication, and the willingness to abandon old views and deeply-held beliefs."

                  In this, we've said exactly the same thing. Thus far, I think we agree.

                  Where we possibly diverge is my final point, which I will state explicitly now:

                  The only factors you need to become a sorcerer are the above two points. You need something to attune you to sorcery, and you need the drive and willingness to embrace sorcery. And that is it. There's no third mystery factor. If you can't learn sorcery then it's either because you haven't been initiated or you don't have the "effort, dedication, and the willingness to abandon old views and deeply-held beliefs."

                  It is not (explicitly, not) the case that some people are "born" with the "potential" for sorcery. Everyone who has the "effort, dedication, and the willingness to abandon old views and deeply-held beliefs" has the potential for sorcery -- all they need is an initiation. If you are given an initiation but don't learn sorcery (like the majority of people living in Ysyr), it is not a metaphysical barrier stopping you -- it is because you don't have the requisite "effort, dedication, and the willingness to abandon old views and deeply-held beliefs" for learning sorcery. This is not a personal or moral failing -- it's not a bad thing to cling to your world view, or put effort and dedication into things that aren't learning sorcery. I haven't learnt Japanese because I have been unwilling to put the effort in, but I have learnt how to fix a car -- there's nothing wrong with Ma-Ha-Suchi putting effort into running a kingdom instead of learning sorcery, or a Ysyr peasant putting effort into keeping his children alive instead of learning sorcery. But if they were willing to put the effort in, and to abandon their old beliefs and worldviews (perhaps if Ma-Ha-Suchi was willing to work for the Realm, or the peasant to murder his children) then they could become sorcerers. That Ma-Ha-Suchi hates the Realm and my random peasant loves their children isn't a value judgement, but it's what is stopping them learning sorcery.

                  There is no sorcery "gene". There will be people who have the drive but not the oppertunity. There will be people who have the opportunity but not the drive. But if someone really wants to learn sorcery, they will learn it given the chance -- they won't fail due to some mystery factor.
                  Last edited by JohnDoe244; 01-01-2020, 06:32 AM.


                  Hi, I'm JohnDoe244. My posts represent my opinions, not facts.

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                  • I more or less agree with JohnDoe, I suspect something in the initial cultural makeup of Ysyr (either access to reality warping initiation touchstones or a cultural leaning towards transcendental thought and the discarding of the "old self", or both?) made it so that the populace is more open to Sorcerous Initiation (just try that shit in say, The Realm, whole villages have been torched for less) and you ended up with the situation present.

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                    • Originally posted by JohnDoe244 View Post
                      I suspect we misunderstand each other.
                      Ah, yes.

                      Now, I'm also willing to acknowledge there's space for "X-factors" that make a person more or less attuneable to sorcery by various methods. That if you fail to be initiated by one method, it might be because you're using the wrong metaphysical method for your particular soul, rather than lacking the necessary effort, dedication, and willingness. (Certainly, Ysyr shows some effects can attune anybody . . .)

                      And then there's the vaguer question of aptitude. Just like in real life some people are able to learn calculus (or to kick a football well, or . . .) with less effort and dedication than others, it's probably easier for some people to master sorcery than others. On any skill, some people are on the right hand of the aptitude bell curve, most are in the middle, and some people are on the left. And some people might of course have a specific issue, a fantasy equivalent of a learning disability, when it comes to sorcery. This isn't explicitly supported anywhere in the text, but seems a likely extension of the fact that it's a field of human endeavor.

                      (This perspective is likely something I'm bringing from my own experience with being a "high IQ" individual simultaneously "on the autism spectrum". The things other people take doing easily for granted, and the things other people can't take doing easily for granted, definitely differ from my own lived experience.)

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                      • Do Charms like Tiger-Warrior Training Technique work on battle groups that aren't made up of humans? Can a sorcerer-general turn his posse of blood-apes into an elite fighting force? From my own perspective ST-wise, I'm not sure I would allow the blood-apes' traits to increase by much (although I'm not 100% sure on this one), but giving them elite Drill would still be pretty rad.

                        (I'm assuming that Might can't go any higher than 3, even if you ironically decide to upgrade your Might 2 blood-apes with Demon-Fighting Principle for another +2 vs. demons.)

                        On a related note: if you have a battle group made up of blood-apes (or any other supernatural being with magic abilities), can the group use its Charms, or is that exactly what their Might rating represents already?

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                        • Originally posted by Jefepato View Post
                          Do Charms like Tiger-Warrior Training Technique work on battle groups that aren't made up of humans? Can a sorcerer-general turn his posse of blood-apes into an elite fighting force? From my own perspective ST-wise, I'm not sure I would allow the blood-apes' traits to increase by much (although I'm not 100% sure on this one), but giving them elite Drill would still be pretty rad.

                          (I'm assuming that Might can't go any higher than 3, even if you ironically decide to upgrade your Might 2 blood-apes with Demon-Fighting Principle for another +2 vs. demons.)

                          On a related note: if you have a battle group made up of blood-apes (or any other supernatural being with magic abilities), can the group use its Charms, or is that exactly what their Might rating represents already?

                          They cannot use Charms (which is bs in my opinion, the Blood Ape problem is bad enough as it is) and it looks like Tiger Warrior would replace Blood Ape stats with Elite Soldier stats, which is not ideal. Same attack pool, less damage, no grapple pool, only +1 Parry... The Lunar variant, Wolf-Pack Training Technique, would instead enhance their stats up to a maximum so their attack pool is untouched as is their Willpower, but their grapple pool, Join Battle pool and Parry would all go up by +1 per use of it to a max of 10 for the pools or 5 for Parry, and their Drill would increase by one step. It's fine to allow their traits to climb up by one point by use of the Charm up to the maxes listed in that Charm, I'd assume.

                          Edit: Also iirc a different demon, the Metody, can self-improve itself out of sheer hatred to its nemeses every story, so its pool limits could also be taken into account when balancing this.
                          Last edited by Alistair; 01-01-2020, 04:40 PM.

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                          • If you travel to an Elemental Pole, do you have to travel through Deep Chaos?


                            I play...
                            Kovan, actor, librarian, sorcerer, great bear, Lunar Elder from the First Age
                            Thutmose-Osiris, seventh son of a seventh son, descendant of the Supreme Deity Sukhmet, renegade demigod and bearer of the Ghoul-Banishing Bow. Also bright green.

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                            • Originally posted by Alistair View Post


                              They cannot use Charms (which is bs in my opinion, the Blood Ape problem is bad enough as it is) and it looks like Tiger Warrior would replace Blood Ape stats with Elite Soldier stats, which is not ideal. Same attack pool, less damage, no grapple pool, only +1 Parry... The Lunar variant, Wolf-Pack Training Technique, would instead enhance their stats up to a maximum so their attack pool is untouched as is their Willpower, but their grapple pool, Join Battle pool and Parry would all go up by +1 per use of it to a max of 10 for the pools or 5 for Parry, and their Drill would increase by one step. It's fine to allow their traits to climb up by one point by use of the Charm up to the maxes listed in that Charm, I'd assume.

                              Edit: Also iirc a different demon, the Metody, can self-improve itself out of sheer hatred to its nemeses every story, so its pool limits could also be taken into account when balancing this.
                              Can they not use charms? RAW they can.

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                              • Originally posted by DrLoveMonkey View Post

                                Can they not use charms? RAW they can.

                                Dev ruling; on the one hand, I get why the ruling is there, on the other I really dislike anything that exacerbates the Blood Ape problem or Tyrant Lizard problem or however you call "a single member of a Battlegroup can obliterate a thousand characters equal in power to them but the only difference is that they're grouped up as a unit". Might does NOT do nearly enough at all to make up for "flurry two attacks" or "double 8s on a damage roll" that Blood Apes get, for example.

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