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  • Originally posted by Alistair View Post


    Dev ruling; on the one hand, I get why the ruling is there, on the other I really dislike anything that exacerbates the Blood Ape problem or Tyrant Lizard problem or however you call "a single member of a Battlegroup can obliterate a thousand characters equal in power to them but the only difference is that they're grouped up as a unit". Might does NOT do nearly enough at all to make up for "flurry two attacks" or "double 8s on a damage roll" that Blood Apes get, for example.
    Yeah...it also means a battlegroup of Bloodapes can’t materialize, a battlegroup of war ghosts can’t inhabit armor, a battlegroup of Anhule can’t spin webs anymore. Are you sure that’s the ruling?

    I think you exaggerate a bit though, a single blood ape vs a size 5 battlegroup of Bloodapes is going to die regardless of having Principle of Motion or not. One hero blood ape could take a size 1 battlegroup of them though. If for some reason you ever had cause to run that fight.

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    • Originally posted by Alistair View Post
      They cannot use Charms (which is bs in my opinion, the Blood Ape problem is bad enough as it is) and it looks like Tiger Warrior would replace Blood Ape stats with Elite Soldier stats, which is not ideal. Same attack pool, less damage, no grapple pool, only +1 Parry... The Lunar variant, Wolf-Pack Training Technique, would instead enhance their stats up to a maximum so their attack pool is untouched as is their Willpower, but their grapple pool, Join Battle pool and Parry would all go up by +1 per use of it to a max of 10 for the pools or 5 for Parry, and their Drill would increase by one step. It's fine to allow their traits to climb up by one point by use of the Charm up to the maxes listed in that Charm, I'd assume.

      Edit: Also iirc a different demon, the Metody, can self-improve itself out of sheer hatred to its nemeses every story, so its pool limits could also be taken into account when balancing this.
      I would assume that TWTT doesn't replace the subjects' stats with Elite Soldier stats if the subjects were never human to begin with. That would just be silly. But the fact that the Charm seems to have been written specifically with humans in mind is why I asked my question in the first place.

      I'm guessing that if you're going to allow TWTT to boost the stats of various weird creatures at all, the ST will need to make case-by-case decisions on what's appropriate.

      I sort of understand why the battle group rules would be abstracted to the point where Might replaces all the creature's Charms (things could get very complicated if it didn't work that way), but it's still kind of disappointing (it would be totally awesome if you could have an entire scale of blood-apes unleash their Shattering Roars together).

      (I seem to recall in 2e, there was a group of half a dozen metody martial artists in the Malfeas book. Given how the vitriol elementals work in 3e, those guys could get downright scary. You know, in case a bunch of kung fu masters made of acid wasn't already scary enough.)

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      • Part of the problem might be that battlegroups of things with charms are supposed to be real edge cases. Most Might 2 forces are fair folk armies or ghosts. Unless you’re Ysyr or the Realm you just don’t have the sorcerous oomph to summon 30 blood apes to attack with.

        If you’re dealing with like 6 blood apes just roll them in individually, if somehow the gates of hell have opened and you’re dealing with 1000 maybe just take the reigns narratively and say you can’t solo it.

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        • Originally posted by DrLoveMonkey View Post
          Part of the problem might be that battlegroups of things with charms are supposed to be real edge cases. Most Might 2 forces are fair folk armies or ghosts. Unless you’re Ysyr or the Realm you just don’t have the sorcerous oomph to summon 30 blood apes to attack with.

          If you’re dealing with like 6 blood apes just roll them in individually, if somehow the gates of hell have opened and you’re dealing with 1000 maybe just take the reigns narratively and say you can’t solo it.

          It's not particularly hard to do a six hour ritual most nights for a few months. Even for a single sorcerer. Let alone a four hour one (elementals).

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          • Might is supposed to represent whatever charms various members of a battle group are using. That's why they can't use them. It's folded into another trait.

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            • Originally posted by Jefepato View Post

              I would assume that TWTT doesn't replace the subjects' stats with Elite Soldier stats if the subjects were never human to begin with. That would just be silly. But the fact that the Charm seems to have been written specifically with humans in mind is why I asked my question in the first place.

              I'm guessing that if you're going to allow TWTT to boost the stats of various weird creatures at all, the ST will need to make case-by-case decisions on what's appropriate.

              I sort of understand why the battle group rules would be abstracted to the point where Might replaces all the creature's Charms (things could get very complicated if it didn't work that way), but it's still kind of disappointing (it would be totally awesome if you could have an entire scale of blood-apes unleash their Shattering Roars together).

              (I seem to recall in 2e, there was a group of half a dozen metody martial artists in the Malfeas book. Given how the vitriol elementals work in 3e, those guys could get downright scary. You know, in case a bunch of kung fu masters made of acid wasn't already scary enough.)

              It's why I prefer Wolf Pack's approach. It does not care about human or otherwise and doesn't have weird rulings like these. A nice, straightforward, +1 to stuff and +1 Drill up. I'd probably make TWTT work like WPTT against spirits and other nonhumans for the sake of brevity and it making any actual sense. As for martial artist demons, I've already used a few in my games and treat it as normal. Not just "there's only twelve of these demons in all of Malfeas who know the styles", more "Oh hey this random demon I summoned knows a bit of kung fu, neat" And sometimes more than just "a bit".

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              • Originally posted by Elfive View Post
                Might is supposed to represent whatever charms various members of a battle group are using. That's why they can't use them. It's folded into another trait.

                It's supposed to. It does a piss poor job of representing Charms.

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                • Originally posted by DrLoveMonkey View Post
                  Part of the problem might be that battlegroups of things with charms are supposed to be real edge cases. Most Might 2 forces are fair folk armies or ghosts. Unless you’re Ysyr or the Realm you just don’t have the sorcerous oomph to summon 30 blood apes to attack with.

                  If you’re dealing with like 6 blood apes just roll them in individually, if somehow the gates of hell have opened and you’re dealing with 1000 maybe just take the reigns narratively and say you can’t solo it.
                  I doubt there are a lot of battle groups of magical beings wandering around the countryside, but they shouldn't be that rare. Didn't even that Librarian guy from Adversaries of the Righteous have a battle group of blood-apes? (And he was a mortal sorcerer who would actually be taking a nontrivial risk in summoning them. An Exalted sorcerer could definitely get a couple dozen demons over the course of a month and have them on hand for the rest of a year.)

                  Also, who says you can't solo 1000 blood-apes? I mean, it'd be hard, but I would think it's possible for a sufficiently badass Dawn Caste. (Besides, I would be extremely reluctant to declare an enemy undefeatable in Exalted, of all games.)

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                  • Originally posted by Alistair View Post


                    It's not particularly hard to do a six hour ritual most nights for a few months. Even for a single sorcerer. Let alone a four hour one (elementals).
                    Yeah I guess if you’re an exalt it’s not so bad. That’s a bit awkward though because thirty blood apes is a nearly unbeatable force when fielded individually, so do we just say “yep, well that sorcerer did a bit of prep work and got 30 apes, either run or we narratively describe how you all due under a tide of muscles fur and claws.”

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                    • Originally posted by Jefepato View Post
                      Also, who says you can't solo 1000 blood-apes? I mean, it'd be hard, but I would think it's possible for a sufficiently badass Dawn Caste. (Besides, I would be extremely reluctant to declare an enemy undefeatable in Exalted, of all games.)
                      Running it individually in the combat system? Where even if every ape only gets a single turn to act your Dawn has to defend against 2,000 attacks? There might be some way to do it but it’s functionally not possible.

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                      • Originally posted by DrLoveMonkey View Post

                        Yeah I guess if you’re an exalt it’s not so bad. That’s a bit awkward though because thirty blood apes is a nearly unbeatable force when fielded individually, so do we just say “yep, well that sorcerer did a bit of prep work and got 30 apes, either run or we narratively describe how you all due under a tide of muscles fur and claws.”

                        Not really, you say "we fight" and then either the Size 2 Blood Ape BG gets destroyed in instants by anything that can beat its Parry and has any dice boosters, or you die to a never-ending onslaught of 30 individually fielded Blood Apes, a problem that BGs were meant to fix; it's not really fair that any answer to "let's fight Mnemon/Raksi" is "you instantly lose if you don't manage to ambush her while undetected by several hundred dematerialized spirits". It's an issue for sure and...

                        I dunno, I would have hoped that Might carried a small bonus that is tailored to represent each creature's might individually. For example, you know Hobgoblins have that Banquet of Fear Merit? It has a different effect when they're a part of a Battlegroup. Maybe Blood Ape BGs could attack out to Short Range in all directions to represent Shattering Roar, or double 9s on Engage attacks (8s against crashed foes) to represent the brutal Savage enhancer they get, or double the amount of onslaught penalty their attacks deal to represent their two multi-attack Charms. Maybe Agatae grant Might 2 to BGs with lower Might when they're being ridden by it while still using the normal BG's other stats. Stuff like that.

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                        • Originally posted by DrLoveMonkey View Post

                          Yeah I guess if you’re an exalt it’s not so bad. That’s a bit awkward though because thirty blood apes is a nearly unbeatable force when fielded individually, so do we just say “yep, well that sorcerer did a bit of prep work and got 30 apes, either run or we narratively describe how you all due under a tide of muscles fur and claws.”
                          It's not that bad period. It's a difficulty 3 roll.
                          Even if you screw it up, you get the same roll to banish. Even if you screw that up, you're pretty safe as long as you have a Defend Other-ing bodyguard and already have a bound ape to kill the unbound ape.
                          The only remotely hard part is the WP cost of 2 saying "Stunt something really well every day if you want to do this daily" and Exalts (as a general category, I know about Solar WP regen) don't get special WP regen abilities so that's a wash.
                          I'd feel safe doing it with straight 2s, a specialty, and some random soldier who I've lied to about the danger. It's that easy.

                          I'd expect any random sorcerer who can cast the spell to be able to whip up an army of 30 demons within seventy days.

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                          • Originally posted by DrLoveMonkey View Post

                            Running it individually in the combat system? Where even if every ape only gets a single turn to act your Dawn has to defend against 2,000 attacks? There might be some way to do it but it’s functionally not possible.

                            It's theoretically possible (Ready in All Directions Stance, Fivefold Bulwark, Victorious Wreath, Divine Executioner, yada yada) but in practice ain't no one got the time fo that, by the 10th hit the BA fails the ST will just go "Yeah they all miss and over the course of three weeks of battling without rest you murder them all and still have a full mote pool"

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                            • Originally posted by DrLoveMonkey View Post
                              Running it individually in the combat system? Where even if every ape only gets a single turn to act your Dawn has to defend against 2,000 attacks? There might be some way to do it but it’s functionally not possible.
                              Building a character who can handle that fight is probably easier than developing the patience (and finding the free time) to actually play it out at the table.

                              But that's...kinda why the battle group rules exist. You're supposed to use battle groups whenever more than two basically-identical fighters exist on the battlefield, and first-circle demons wouldn't be listed under Might 2 if you weren't supposed to organize them into battle groups.

                              I do agree that Might as written seems to do an inadequate job covering various creatures' abilities. It would be interesting if each demon/elemental/whatever had a separate rule for how they worked in battle groups, although I'm not sure anyone wants to make it more complicated to write up new spirits.

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                              • Originally posted by Alistair View Post
                                It's theoretically possible (Ready in All Directions Stance, Fivefold Bulwark, Victorious Wreath, Divine Executioner, yada yada) but in practice ain't no one got the time fo that, by the 10th hit the BA fails the ST will just go "Yeah they all miss and over the course of three weeks of battling without rest you murder them all and still have a full mote pool"
                                I just think letting them use charms is pretty well fine. That's what I've been doing and I've never run into any problems with it. I've even let them use command actions to enhance Shattering Roar before and it worked out okay. Size 3 battlegroup had a base die roll of 14 + command roll, with base withering damage of 27 + overflow against all targets within the range band.

                                I mean you still aren't going to make 1000 blood apes as hard as running 1000 individual apes but that's something you just have to deal with. Either Blood Apes are so piss-weak that they should never be run as individuals, or they're so strong that you could never beat 1000 of them, or battling an entire legion from Hell involves you slaying a demon with every swing and fighting only a handful of them isn't like that.

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