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  • Originally posted by Jefepato View Post

    Building a character who can handle that fight is probably easier than developing the patience (and finding the free time) to actually play it out at the table.

    But that's...kinda why the battle group rules exist. You're supposed to use battle groups whenever more than two basically-identical fighters exist on the battlefield, and first-circle demons wouldn't be listed under Might 2 if you weren't supposed to organize them into battle groups.

    I do agree that Might as written seems to do an inadequate job covering various creatures' abilities. It would be interesting if each demon/elemental/whatever had a separate rule for how they worked in battle groups, although I'm not sure anyone wants to make it more complicated to write up new spirits.


    It's not all that complicated; I've been giving a BG rewrite a whirl, and so far, including small bonuses below each spirit is surprisingly simple. You just look at their Charms and which seems to be more iconic to the spirit, and give them a neat passive/WP-cost/initiative-cost trick accordingly, with better bonuses the more Might the being has or the more powerful the being is. A Battlegroup composed of twelve combat demons on par with Octavian will have better Might-derived bonuses than a War Ghost Battlegroup despite both having Might 2. Not everyone will want to go that length but it surely helps the issue with single combatants compared to Charmless BGs, and Might feeling horribly inadequate at representing Charms and Merits and Special Abilities.

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    • Originally posted by DrLoveMonkey View Post

      I just think letting them use charms is pretty well fine. That's what I've been doing and I've never run into any problems with it. I've even let them use command actions to enhance Shattering Roar before and it worked out okay. Size 3 battlegroup had a base die roll of 14 + command roll, with base withering damage of 27 + overflow against all targets within the range band.

      I mean you still aren't going to make 1000 blood apes as hard as running 1000 individual apes but that's something you just have to deal with. Either Blood Apes are so piss-weak that they should never be run as individuals, or they're so strong that you could never beat 1000 of them, or battling an entire legion from Hell involves you slaying a demon with every swing and fighting only a handful of them isn't like that.

      To me, it's less "broken" (though you could argue damage 27 + overflow is pretty broken, particularly with War Charms giving a horribly hefty overflow) and more, it gets really complex to try and make a BG's Charms work as usual. Grapple Charms? You have to make them into Engage Charms instead and tweak accordingly. Multiattacks? It hits everyone around the BG so you have to be VERY careful with that or it becomes ungodly powerful. It's not as simple as just "Have the BG use Charms", hence why I think a middle of the road approach (no Charms, but Might-granted unique bonuses) could help BGs with Might feel more appropriate without the ST going crazy.

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      • Originally posted by Alistair View Post
        twelve combat demons on par with Octavian
        That's definitely unnecessary. It's almost as bad as trying to figure out rules for a battlegroup of Dawns.

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        • Originally posted by DrLoveMonkey View Post

          That's definitely unnecessary. It's almost as bad as trying to figure out rules for a battlegroup of Dawns.

          'twas but an example. I doubt STs will ever try to throw those into a BG, one is plenty enough on his own.

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          • Originally posted by Alistair View Post
            To me, it's less "broken" (though you could argue damage 27 + overflow is pretty broken, particularly with War Charms giving a horribly hefty overflow) and more, it gets really complex to try and make a BG's Charms work as usual. Grapple Charms? You have to make them into Engage Charms instead and tweak accordingly. Multiattacks? It hits everyone around the BG so you have to be VERY careful with that or it becomes ungodly powerful. It's not as simple as just "Have the BG use Charms", hence why I think a middle of the road approach (no Charms, but Might-granted unique bonuses) could help BGs with Might feel more appropriate without the ST going crazy.
            I think it's way more complicated to go through every spirit and wyld creature and come up with their own secondary set of combat boons for use while they're a battlegroup. There are some that I probably wouldn't use, although I haven't found any so far. Brutal Ape Pounce just works, you wither, if they take more than 4 damage from it they're prone, and if it knocks one of the characters below the battlegroup they can reflexively engage it.

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            • Originally posted by DrLoveMonkey View Post

              I think it's way more complicated to go through every spirit and wyld creature and come up with their own secondary set of combat boons for use while they're a battlegroup. There are some that I probably wouldn't use, although I haven't found any so far. Brutal Ape Pounce just works, you wither, if they take more than 4 damage from it they're prone, and if it knocks one of the characters below the battlegroup they can reflexively engage it.

              But here's where it gets weird: Battlegroups don't gain initiative naturally, and they lose initiative by using Brutal Ape Pounce, so each time they use it it becomes less and less likely that they will use its best function; also, they don't have a withering or decisive divide, so for a BG it's pretty much a multi-attack and it applies to everyone around it, meaning that if a single combatant is knocked below them ALL combatants within range of them get attacked again. There's just too much that changes for it to retain its original balance, it feels both weaker and stronger in multiple ways. Also, extremely powerful (much more than the original) with Command enhancers.

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              • Originally posted by Alistair View Post
                But here's where it gets weird: Battlegroups don't gain initiative naturally, and they lose initiative by using Brutal Ape Pounce, so each time they use it it becomes less and less likely that they will use its best function; also, they don't have a withering or decisive divide, so for a BG it's pretty much a multi-attack and it applies to everyone around it, meaning that if a single combatant is knocked below them ALL combatants within range of them get attacked again. There's just too much that changes for it to retain its original balance, it feels both weaker and stronger in multiple ways. Also, extremely powerful (much more than the original) with Command enhancers.
                It's not that bad, even regular apes can't use the attack more than once every 3-4 turns anyway due to the reset, and you can only engage one target with the reflexive attack. It's also a simple charm so it can't be placed into a flurry, you're only getting the one AoE attack and then the reflexive single target attack. It's not less likely to be locked in though, engage actions automatically succeed without a roll, they just can't do it if they completely run out of initiative, I think.

                It IS extremely powerful, although still way way less powerful than facing 500 demons on their own, even with command actions. It's sort of supposed to be though, isn't it? If you go to Hell, call out Octavian, tell him to bring his whole damn army of the so called "Quarter-Prince of Hell", then you'd better be sporting some pretty badass combat abilities, warstriders, your own army, or some combination of those things.

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                • Engage? It's a Decisive attack, not a grapple roll, what Brutal Ape gives you. So it would not translate to a reflexive engage roll, but to a reflexive attack, and all BG attacks are AoE.

                  Edit: That said, I misremembered, Brutal Ape Pounce does not cost initiative, that's Rending Claw Slash.
                  Last edited by Alistair; 01-01-2020, 08:00 PM.

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                  • Originally posted by The Wizard of Oz View Post
                    If you travel to an Elemental Pole, do you have to travel through Deep Chaos?

                    Not that I can recall. Besides, they're supposed to be the anchors of Creation so you should be able to get to them directly from inside Creation.


                    I express my opinions, but YSMV; Your Stories May Vary.

                    Formerly known as wyrmpuff

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                    • Originally posted by Alistair View Post
                      Engage? It's a Decisive attack, not a grapple roll, what Brutal Ape gives you. So it would not translate to a reflexive engage roll, but to a reflexive attack, and all BG attacks are AoE.

                      Edit: That said, I misremembered, Brutal Ape Pounce does not cost initiative, that's Rending Claw Slash.
                      Engage is just what battlegroups do rather than the Grapple gambit. Same cost, same function of first hitting, then having a contested roll to see how many rounds of control, then getting to make subsequent savaging attacks against defense 0. The only things different is that the BG can use any combat ability for it, they automatically succeed at the initiative roll, and they can't throw or restrain their target.

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                      • Originally posted by DrLoveMonkey View Post

                        Engage is just what battlegroups do rather than the Grapple gambit. Same cost, same function of first hitting, then having a contested roll to see how many rounds of control, then getting to make subsequent savaging attacks against defense 0. The only things different is that the BG can use any combat ability for it, they automatically succeed at the initiative roll, and they can't throw or restrain their target.
                        Yes, I know, I was simply wondering why you were mentioning it in the context of Brutal Ape which for BGs would just be a Single Point-like double attack except AoE.

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                        • Originally posted by Alistair View Post

                          Yes, I know, I was simply wondering why you were mentioning it in the context of Brutal Ape which for BGs would just be a Single Point-like double attack except AoE.
                          Oh right I was completely mis-remembering how Brutal Ape Pounce worked, it's not a reflexive grapple it's a reflexive decisive. Yeah you'd probably just let it make the second attack against anyone that qualified for it. It's not like they couldn't do that anyway, it's 4m 1wp but conditional vs 10m 1wp for just straight up two attacks.

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                          • Originally posted by The Wizard of Oz View Post
                            If you travel to an Elemental Pole, do you have to travel through Deep Chaos?
                            No. You must not leave Creation.
                            Originally posted by Mal'akh View Post
                            Not that I can recall. Besides, they're supposed to be the anchors of Creation so you should be able to get to them directly from inside Creation.
                            Yes. Compass of Celestial Directions: The Wyld agrees. The Elemental Poles are located at the fartherest cardinal points on the border of Creation, wherever that is at the time, and if a traveler manages to successfully navigate to one without straying onto the Wyld, there is no path to the Wyld from inside a pole. (All paths away from a cardinal Pole lead back to Creation.)

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                            • Is there a sort of list of Yozis, their themes and their demons ? I'm looking for some inspiration and wondering what if there is the pre-existing material for this.


                              My homebrew (Leave comments if you want to help improve) : A quick recap of all the pools and stats for Quick Exalted 3E characters

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                              • Originally posted by Chausse View Post
                                Is there a sort of list of Yozis, their themes and their demons ? I'm looking for some inspiration and wondering what if there is the pre-existing material for this.
                                Officially, the themes for most can be found in Games of Divinty and Legends of the Titans (ink monkeys 2e).
                                You can also consult http://exalted.xi.co.nz/wiki/ATaxonomyOfMadness which is an out of date listing of demon-Yozi relations(Qaf for instance is canon now).


                                The Book of Laughing Serpents Series(Latest Here)
                                Many Limbed Manual
                                Patreon here: https://patreon.com/undeadauthorsociety
                                San Jeanro Co-Op writer. Volume 1 here Volume 2 here Volume 3 here
                                My folklore and horror blog, here:http://undeadauthorsociety.com

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