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  • What rating would you give an Artifact that grants an extra Shaping Ritual type ability?

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    • Originally posted by Grod_the_giant View Post
      What rating would you give an Artifact that grants an extra Shaping Ritual type ability?

      If that was all it did, I'd put that at 3 dots. I'd allow some evocations centering around the shaping ritual too. For four dots, I'd allow an unusually powerful shaping ritual as the base effect, and the evocations could boost sorcery in general, not just the ritual.

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      • Originally posted by Grod_the_giant View Post
        What rating would you give an Artifact that grants an extra Shaping Ritual type ability?
        The book puts crafting a sorcerous relic as artifact 4, but also requires a celestial 1 sorcerous working. (page 470)

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        • So likely First Age Artifice

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          • Originally posted by autXautY View Post

            The book puts crafting a sorcerous relic as artifact 4, but also requires a celestial 1 sorcerous working. (page 470)
            Note that that's specifically a sorcerous relic of "comparable sorcerous power" to a Talisman of Ten Thousand Eyes, which is basically an artifact capable of giving you a whole sorcerous initiation in itself. An item that just gave you a single shaping ritual would be less powerful than that.

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            • Originally posted by Kelly Pedersen View Post

              Note that that's specifically a sorcerous relic of "comparable sorcerous power" to a Talisman of Ten Thousand Eyes, which is basically an artifact capable of giving you a whole sorcerous initiation in itself. An item that just gave you a single shaping ritual would be less powerful than that.
              I'm not sure what the gap in power is? My impression is that "a sorcerous initiation" and "a shaping ritual" are more or less the same thing.

              The differences I could see are:
              1. An artifact that gives you a shaping ritual does nothing if you don't have the terrestrial circle sorcery charm, not even provide narrative justification for taking the charm (sidenote, ToTTE provides narrative justification for taking the charm, but nothing else)
              2. An initiation gives you a choice of 3 rituals, a shaping ritual gives you no choice (except under most circumstances the dot rating matters, you have free rein to customize your ritual)
              3. An initiation comes with the option to purchase merits.
              4. If you take an additional sorcery charm (celestial or solar circle), an initiation gives you additional options for the new ritual to take.

              None of these seem like large distinctions in power to me, and most seem like things that I would guess would be included in an artifact to grant a shaping ritual, especially given several are about opening options and giving the player game-design-powers, which are things that making an artifact already gives a lot of.

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              • Originally posted by autXautY View Post
                I'm not sure what the gap in power is? My impression is that "a sorcerous initiation" and "a shaping ritual" are more or less the same thing.
                A shaping ritual is an alternate method for gathering sorcerous motes. A sorcerous initiation is the plot description for how the character trained in their Sorcery Charm (or the merit, if mortal). These inititations list a set of sample rutuals, and each sorcery charm grants access to one ritual (which may be, but need not be, aquired through the same initiation source.

                An artifact (or hearthstone) that grants access to an extra ritual need not be a source of initiation in itself. It is just an alternative means of gathering sorcerous motes.

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                • Originally posted by Greyman View Post
                  A shaping ritual is an alternate method for gathering sorcerous motes. A sorcerous initiation is the plot description for how the character trained in their Sorcery Charm (or the merit, if mortal). These inititations list a set of sample rutuals, and each sorcery charm grants access to one ritual (which may be, but need not be, aquired through the same initiation source.

                  An artifact (or hearthstone) that grants access to an extra ritual need not be a source of initiation in itself. It is just an alternative means of gathering sorcerous motes.
                  A shaping ritual and a sorcerous initiation are different ... I want to say grammatically? They're different in the sense that they are used in totally different contexts, in different roles in a sentence.

                  I'm confused what the difference is once they're used in the same place.
                  I don't see the difference between "an artifact that grants a shaping ritual", "an artifact that grants a sorcerous initiation" and "an artifact that is a sorcerous initiation"

                  If a sorcerer picks each of them up, the sorcerer gains a new way to gather sorcerous motes.
                  If a non-sorcerer picks each of them up, they gain nothing, but now have an option to take a charm/merit that makes them a sorcerer (with a method of gaining motes, since that always comes with the charm/merit). Except maybe the first type of artifact doesn't grant that?

                  It might be that "an artifact that grants a shaping ritual" can't be used unless you're already a sorcerer? I can sort of see why that's relevant, but it's not something I can see what the story explanation is - why is one sorcerous artifact suitable for initiating, but another isn't? Also, if a player making an artifact is designing it, it seems kind of cheesy to make it cheaper by adding a drawback that's irrelevant (and possibly a benefit - if you're a sorcerer, and you have an artifact that gives an extra shaping ritual, you'd rather mortals don't try to steal it to become sorcerers).

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                  • Originally posted by JohnDoe244 View Post
                    Yes to both.

                    The rules for committed motes are on page 254.
                    The rules for Supernals applying to Charm upgrades are on page 122. The definition of a Charm upgrade (the Essence 4+ effect) is on page 255.

                    Note that the motes for Empowering Shout are NOT committed.
                    Thanks for the precise points of reference in the book !

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                    • Originally posted by autXautY View Post
                      A shaping ritual and a sorcerous initiation are different ... I want to say grammatically? They're different in the sense that they are used in totally different contexts, in different roles in a sentence.
                      A sorcerous initiation includes learning a shaping ritual, among other things.

                      A shaping ritual is only a method for gathering sorcerous motes.

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                      • Originally posted by Greyman View Post
                        A sorcerous initiation includes learning a shaping ritual, among other things.

                        A shaping ritual is only a method for gathering sorcerous motes.
                        Among what other things?

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                        • Originally posted by autXautY View Post
                          Among what other things?
                          Access to initiation-specific Merits and, of course, the actual ability to cast spells.

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                          • Originally posted by autXautY View Post

                            The book puts crafting a sorcerous relic as artifact 4, but also requires a celestial 1 sorcerous working. (page 470)
                            Oh wow, I did not mean to open a can of worms, sorry. I'm going to take this as my answer; 4 dots matches up with artifacts in Arms that involve sorcery, and my players will enjoy the teamwork (the party crafter wanted to make something for his sorcerer friend)

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                            • I'm finally getting around to the reading the setting sections of the Core book and I notice that description of the Underworld (pg. 114) emphasizes that it is a watery place, full of "oceans," "rivers," and "isles." Is the Underworld no longer a decaying memory of Creation?

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                              • Originally posted by Reminiscent Oasis View Post
                                I'm finally getting around to the reading the setting sections of the Core book and I notice that description of the Underworld (pg. 114) emphasizes that it is a watery place, full of "oceans," "rivers," and "isles." Is the Underworld no longer a decaying memory of Creation?
                                If 2e's Underworld was a mirror of Creation, 3e's Underworld is a broken mirror, with the varying pieces not quite fitting together, and reflecting things differently. If 2e's Underworld was like a memory of Creation, 3e's Underworld is the kind of memory that changes over time, idealizing itself further each time it is recalled.

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