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  • Back in 2e, there were a few Solar Charms for changing the beliefs of a society outright.

    I'm not suggesting that we should convert those 3e. Frankly, making an entire society believe something by making a single roll was going way too far. But I'm not sure how one does go about altering a society's beliefs.

    The rules for leadership and projects are honestly kind of vague, and seem to consist mainly of "your project succeeds as long as you have the time and resources to attempt it, and you deal with any failure conditions the GM comes up with."

    Does anyone have thoughts on how to play out this kind of scenario? Presumably, a Solar (or whoever) trying to influence a society disseminates propaganda, persuades influential individuals within the society, makes speeches, and otherwise wins hearts and minds. I guess if you're using the project rules, the failure conditions would largely consist of influential people that you need to convince or remove?

    I dunno. As I said, I wouldn't want anyone (even a Solar) overturning a society's beliefs in a single roll, but some kind of guidelines for large-scale social influence would have been interesting.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Jefepato View Post
      Back in 2e, there were a few Solar Charms for changing the beliefs of a society outright.

      I'm not suggesting that we should convert those 3e. Frankly, making an entire society believe something by making a single roll was going way too far. But I'm not sure how one does go about altering a society's beliefs.

      The rules for leadership and projects are honestly kind of vague, and seem to consist mainly of "your project succeeds as long as you have the time and resources to attempt it, and you deal with any failure conditions the GM comes up with."

      Does anyone have thoughts on how to play out this kind of scenario? Presumably, a Solar (or whoever) trying to influence a society disseminates propaganda, persuades influential individuals within the society, makes speeches, and otherwise wins hearts and minds. I guess if you're using the project rules, the failure conditions would largely consist of influential people that you need to convince or remove?

      I dunno. As I said, I wouldn't want anyone (even a Solar) overturning a society's beliefs in a single roll, but some kind of guidelines for large-scale social influence would have been interesting.
      I'd personally model that as a (very slow) social interaction with a bunch of actors.
      You've got the person(s) attempting to affect change.
      You've got the various social groups (merchants, farmers, military, nobles, etc). Particularly massive societies may have lots of groups broken down by social class and geographic position.
      You've got the various major figures attempting to resist change.

      So the change-maker throws a social action at one of the social groups. Then everyone else throws around their social responses. Repeat until desired result achieved , impossible, or talking gives way to something else. Zoom in and out as needed, such as if two major actors engage each other socially.

      For example, Sam Solar goes to the farmers to Instill "I must not anger the wood-spirits by hunting in their land". The merchants get wind of this and don't like it since pelts are a valuable export, so they Persuade (or Bargain) the nobles to crack down on this strange belief. The nobles counter-Instill to remove the new intimacy, easily beating awful farmer Resolve. Sam Solar realizes this isn't going to work as long as the nobles oppose him, so directs his next Instill at the nobles and winds up in a debate with the merchants. The local Immaculate Monk hears of this religious debate and...
      At some point, either Sam Solar's got enough support that he can sit back and let society change itself (the nobles and merchants agree to stay out of the woods, and they can get the farmers and military to comply) or he's stonewalled by NO RETRY signs and needs to take a different tact (say, get the Immaculate Monk to step in).

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Jefepato View Post
        I'm not suggesting that we should convert those 3e. Frankly, making an entire society believe something by making a single roll was going way too far. But I'm not sure how one does go about altering a society's beliefs.

        [snip]

        Does anyone have thoughts on how to play out this kind of scenario? Presumably, a Solar (or whoever) trying to influence a society disseminates propaganda, persuades influential individuals within the society, makes speeches, and otherwise wins hearts and minds. I guess if you're using the project rules, the failure conditions would largely consist of influential people that you need to convince or remove?
        I would use at least a modified version of the project rules, because I think they have a very important element that could get lost in other systems. Namely, they keep the PCs having adventures, which a lot of "bureaucracy systems" tend to fall down on. Just like a major bureaucracy project, being able to make some rolls during downtime and accomplish a major transformation of society tends to trivialize that accomplishment. So I'd definitely want to preserve the project system's whole thing about having to do other stuff and rely on other Abilities to keep things going forward.

        All that said, there could stand to be a few more rolls in the project system, and, perhaps even more importantly, more guidance on what the scope of projects and how long they take should be. We had a thread a couple months ago discussing providing more detail for the project system, and I think a lot of my suggestions in that thread, particularly giving scope numbers to various project levels, are somewhat relevant here as well.

        I don't want to occupy a huge post in the Ask a Question thread with this, since it's really more of a "short Q&A" kind of place, but quickly, here's what I'd do for this kind of society altering project. First, most Bureaucracy rolls would be replaced with Socialize rolls. I'd probably call for one at the start to gauge what the shift would actually require, and plan it, and further rolls along the course of the project, after overcoming obstacles, to see if it was still on course. Scope would be defined by a) how big a group you were trying to change, and b) the significance of the change. I'd break the significance levels into Minor, Major, and Defining, much like Intimacies (though noting that a group or culture's beliefs are not necessarily Intimacies for anyone in the group). And I'd throw together some Socialize charms paralleling Bureaucracy charms like Speed the Wheels that would affect such projects, but with less absolute "I win" effects compared to the 2e versions.

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        • Burning Coal Fist, the first Evocation for the hearthstone Candent Carbuncle, allows the bearer to re-roll (lower of Essence or 3) 10s on a decisive attack. Does anyone know if that's a typo or is there some value to this that I'm missing? It seems to me that if you re-roll a 10, that die no longer counts as a 10 so you're potentially losing 2 successes there. Was it suppose to be re-roll 1s? Or maybe, granting one non-Charm bonus die for (lower of Essence or 3) 10s rolled?

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Reminiscent Oasis View Post
            Burning Coal Fist, the first Evocation for the hearthstone Candent Carbuncle, allows the bearer to re-roll (lower of Essence or 3) 10s on a decisive attack. Does anyone know if that's a typo or is there some value to this that I'm missing? It seems to me that if you re-roll a 10, that die no longer counts as a 10 so you're potentially losing 2 successes there.
            I can't find a dev quote right now, but if a charm is supposed to be helping you, and tells you to reroll successes, it always means "roll more dice and add what you get to your existing successes". As an example of this principle, see this dev post talking about Flawless Handiwork Method, which also tells you to "reroll 10s", but the dev interprets as "roll an extra non-charm die for every 10 that appeared in your roll".

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Kelly Pedersen View Post

              +1 for withering attacks against non-mounted human-scale enemies, or +2 against battlegroups who don't have Reaching-tagged weapons.



              You can only make them with a fixed lance after moving 2 consecutive range bands towards the target, and they add to the raw damage of either withering or decisive attacks.
              Thanks Kelly! That's really powerful...


              I play...
              Kovan, actor, librarian, sorcerer, great bear, Lunar Elder from the First Age
              Thutmose-Osiris, seventh son of a seventh son, descendant of the Supreme Deity Sukhmet, renegade demigod and bearer of the Ghoul-Banishing Bow. Also bright green.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by The Wizard of Oz View Post

                Thanks Kelly! That's really powerful...

                No problem! It is quite potent. I think the real limiting factor is the "must move two range bands towards the target consecutively" bit. Most characters can't do that in less than two turns, and you have to be pretty deep into Solar Ride (or Athletics if you're the centaur) to do it in one turn.

                Comment


                • Yeah, there's a bunch of Lunar charms that let you do it, but they're expensive.


                  I play...
                  Kovan, actor, librarian, sorcerer, great bear, Lunar Elder from the First Age
                  Thutmose-Osiris, seventh son of a seventh son, descendant of the Supreme Deity Sukhmet, renegade demigod and bearer of the Ghoul-Banishing Bow. Also bright green.

                  Comment


                  • Is there any way to learn a shaping rituals other than learning the Sorcery Charms?

                    Nevermind. Immediately after asking this I noticed the sidebar staring me in the face explaining this.
                    Last edited by Reminiscent Oasis; 01-22-2020, 03:19 PM.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Reminiscent Oasis View Post
                      Is there any way to learn a shaping rituals other than learning the Sorcery Charms?

                      Nevermind. Immediately after asking this I noticed the sidebar staring me in the face explaining this.
                      Apparently that sidebar is lies, according to Vance.

                      http://forum.theonyxpath.com/forum/m...29#post1150529


                      Wait my mistake it’s only about learning from different sources, not learning more rituals, I think. The sidebar anyway.
                      Last edited by DrLoveMonkey; 01-22-2020, 04:36 PM.

                      Comment


                      • The most relevant dev quote I can find about getting new shaping rituals outside of the higher-Circle sorcery charms is this one, which suggests that learning new rituals is possible, but should require similar levels of time and investment to creating a new sorcerous relic.

                        Comment


                        • Thanks for pointing out those quotes from Vance. The main reason I'm looking into this now is one of the characters in my upcoming Lunar game is planning on a healer-sorcerer character concept with the Root-Lore initiation. While the first shaping ritual provided there - the one involving the discovery and utilization of medicinal plants - works best for his character, the other one involving the utilization of plants as sorcerous reagents would also be good. I was trying to figure out if there would be a way he could start with both, or how he might go about acquiring the other during game play.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Reminiscent Oasis View Post
                            I was trying to figure out if there would be a way he could start with both, or how he might go about acquiring the other during game play.
                            Personally, I probably wouldn't require as much effort as suggested in the Crafting Sorcerous Relics sidebar if the player was just trying to learn another shaping ritual from their existing initiation. Crafting a sorcerous relic like a Talisman of Ten Thousand Eyes is a more significant thing, I feel - the way I read the sidebar, it's talking about crafting a Talisman for the first time, when a character hasn't previously had that initiation at all. Thus, completing such a project gives a character, not only a new shaping ritual, but expanded options to choose other rituals, or the ability to hand the relic off and make someone else a sorcerer.

                            Just accessing a new ritual of your existing initiation, I'd call for a Terrestrial 2 working, followed by an extended roll of some other sort, with a difficulty of 3, a goal of 30, a period of one week, and no terminus. In the case you're describing, I'd probably ask for an (Intelligence + Occult) roll for the extended roll (learning the other ritual, the one about medicinal plants, would probably be (Intelligence + Lore) instead).

                            For starting with an additional ritual, I'd call that a 1-dot merit. That puts the price in XP comparable to the cost of doing the working later.

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                            • I think it's indeed worth something about 4 exp. If someone tell me they work on this enough time (usually few months, maybe some years if it's utterly specific) I'd allow them at a 4 exp cost.


                              My homebrew (Leave comments if you want to help improve) : A quick recap of all the pools and stats for Quick Exalted 3E characters

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                              • Does Essence-Gathering Temper reset at the end of the scene if you don't meet the reset condition? Can you simply never use it again until you soak a large enough withering attack?

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