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  • #61
    Originally posted by Isator Levi View Post

    I'd say comparatively few Solars have the Charms to break through solid stone and metal with their bare hands.
    Yeah, but the point was that that would cease to be the case if you locked them all up.

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    • #62
      Originally posted by Elfive View Post
      Yeah, but the point was that that would cease to be the case if you locked them all up.
      This assumes that Solars IN CHARACTER have the choice to develop any Charms they want. That is a highly debatable assumption. Players can choose to spend xp on whatever they charms they want (assuming prerequisits are met), but that's because players have far more control over defining their character than individuals actually have over themselves.

      Martial Arts Styles work closer to that way, because they're specific techniques that are learned rather than a direct expression of personal excellence (still need to justify how you trained in it though - but for a PC worst-case scenario it can be handwaved with "you knew it in a past life" if necessary), but just as not everyone can simply choose to learn to be world-class singer, I don't believe every Solar can Iearn every Charm.


      Check out my expansion to the Realm of Brass and Shadow

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      • #63
        There might be some Exalts who'd deal with it in the manner of the whole "Iroh secretly works out inside of his cell until he's strong enough to tear it apart with his bare hands", but not all of them.

        My idea of a Zenith who's a kind of belligerant Princess Diana figure, winning the hearts of commoners and emperors and then off-handedly stating that she'd like a certain other land's palace so that they'll go to war for her, she's not tearing her way through any prisons by any means (and her guards are deaf and blind).


        I have approximate knowledge of many things.
        Watch me play Dark Souls III (completed)
        https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLDtbr08HW8RW4jOHN881YA3yRZBV4lpYw Watch me play Breath of the Wild (updated 12/03)

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        • #64
          Originally posted by glamourweaver View Post

          This assumes that Solars IN CHARACTER have the choice to develop any Charms they want. That is a highly debatable assumption.
          It's not. Solar Exalted do develop Charms. They are not "found" or pop up in reality from some larger entity. Not every Exalted may choose to break through stones by physical force alone, but some may slip through impossible thin cracks or just jump over a given wall, or mindcontrol a warden into releasing them, and so on.

          That is the basic core of why Exalted were invented in the first place. Because they can adapt (perfectly) to any situation after a given while. The way they do it may differ, but the result doesn't.
          That's why First Age prisons seem to include timewarping effect (at least some are mentioned, but one can assume all major prisons follow this idea. That way you can at least prolong an escape. And prolonging is the basic idea.
          Not even the Yozis were expected to stay silently in their cosmic imprisonment. DotFA mentions that a lot.


          Complete the Wizard's Panoply [How to be a mage in Creation]

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          • #65
            "We imprisoned the King of the Primordials in his own butt. Don't think we can't do the same to you."

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            • #66
              Stone prisons put together by Earth aspects...not going to hold a Solar. First age prisons constructed by ancient Twilights? Yeah that'll do it.

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              • #67
                Originally posted by Nephtys View Post

                It's not. Solar Exalted do develop Charms.
                But not all Solars develop the same kinds of skills. A character who is a diplomat and a courtier is going to have more limited options than one who develops their fists until they're powerful enough to shatter adamant, and it's disingenuous to just have such a character inexplicably develop a desire to start shattering adamant, especially when they're confined in a context in which developing such a skill is inhibited.

                And even then... if I develop a Solar as a highly competent swordfighter, that doesn't necessarily mean I can cut through solid stone, and even if it does it might not help too much if I lack a weapon.

                That does lead to cool scenes of prison guards being extremely meticulous in giving the prisoner food and such, so that they can't use their chopsticks as a weapon. For the sake of narrative, this inevitably leads to a cool scene where the Solar secrets away a hairclip or a feather or something, and fights their way out with that, but it's plausible for such a thing to take years or decades.

                Originally posted by Nephtys
                That is the basic core of why Exalted were invented in the first place. Because they can adapt (perfectly) to any situation after a given while. The way they do it may differ, but the result doesn't.
                The Exalted were humans given the might of gods to fight the enemies of the gods who had never made themselves immune to humans.

                These overelaborate and technical conceptions of what makes for the might of the Exalted are really tiresome, not to mention extremely limiting on the idea of what the Exalted are and the scope of possible opponents (because everything will be viewed erroneously through a lens of "being less powerful than Exalts", or "less adaptable than Exalts", and other irritations).

                The mechanics given for how Exalted develop skills are not meant to represent them as the robot from The Incredibles.

                Originally posted by Nephtys
                That's why First Age prisons seem to include timewarping effect (at least some are mentioned, but one can assume all major prisons follow this idea. That way you can at least prolong an escape. And prolonging is the basic idea.
                I imagine that's a bit excessive, more the sort of thing you develop when you're a supergenius. It's like comparing old stone and mortar to modern rebar; sure there are only particular types of building you can put up with the latter, but people still made functional buildings with the former.

                Although given how people reacted to the Magnus in Gunstar Autochthonia, I doubt people would even be satisfied by time bubble prisons.

                See also, how people reacted to the Magnus in Gunstar as an indication of why the idea of "Celestial Exalted can't be imprisoned" is awful; just take one pretty cool character concept and drag it through the mud via the chains of exacting and inflexible reading of mechanics.


                I have approximate knowledge of many things.
                Watch me play Dark Souls III (completed)
                https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLDtbr08HW8RW4jOHN881YA3yRZBV4lpYw Watch me play Breath of the Wild (updated 12/03)

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                • #68
                  Originally posted by Isator Levi View Post

                  I imagine that's a bit excessive, more the sort of thing you develop when you're a supergenius. It's like comparing old stone and mortar to modern rebar; sure there are only particular types of building you can put up with the latter, but people still made functional buildings with the former.

                  Although given how people reacted to the Magnus in Gunstar Autochthonia, I doubt people would even be satisfied by time bubble prisons.

                  See also, how people reacted to the Magnus in Gunstar as an indication of why the idea of "Celestial Exalted can't be imprisoned" is awful; just take one pretty cool character concept and drag it through the mud via the chains of exacting and inflexible reading of mechanics.
                  I can't remember Magnus, what was his deal and people's problem with it?

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                  • #69
                    Basically solar Hannibal Lecter, right down to being consulted about stuff because he was considered a genius by twilight standards.

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                    • #70
                      Originally posted by Elfive View Post
                      Basically solar Hannibal Lecter, right down to being consulted about stuff because he was considered a genius by twilight standards.
                      Oh right that guy. Did people have a problem with him being restrained or with him still affecting people while restrained and essence drained?

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                      • #71
                        To put this another way, there are people in the real world who would desperately like to be good at a thing, but have found in practice they don't have the knack for it. Some people want to make video games but can't wrap their heads around coding. Some people want to be gymnasts but are, in practice, klutzes. Moreover, this is prevalent in media -- in Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon, it's a major plot point that Jade Fox just intrinsically isn't as good at swordsmanship and martial arts as her protege Jen was, and Jen had to hide this... and when Jade Fox learned that Jen had a knack Fox didn't, Fox became so jealous she immediately tried to kill Jen. "The dude who doesn't have it in him to be the best, and is insanely jealous of the protagonist, who is the best, as a result" is a staple of shounen stories.

                        (There's a sort of philosophical feel-good counter that says "You can excel at anything if you just put your mind to it," but I don't buy into that because it feels like victim-blaming when it runs into people who genuinely want to be good at a thing and aren't -- "You're just not trying hard enough; you don't really want it." Far better to acknowledge that failure to develop a skill is not a moral failing when an honest good-faith effort has been put toward it.)

                        Just because you can spend your XP however you want doesn't mean everyone in the setting can learn anything they want. The phenomenon of "I would like to be great at this thing, but I don't seem to have it in me" is alive and well in Creation (as is "I would like to be good at this thing, but while I may or may not have it in me, I do not have it in me to muster the self-discipline necessary to apply myself properly to learning it"), and while the Exalted are meant to exemplify the greatest potential of humanity, they aren't meant to be perfectly adaptive Amazo robots or Nimrod nanotech sentinels or liquid metal T-1000s who can alter themselves to match any challenge. It is perfectly reasonable to imagine a Twilight who just won't develop the physical attributes or Charms necessary to punch through a brick wall, no matter how much punching through a brick wall might benefit him, because that's not who he is and that's not where his field of excellence lies.

                        (Mind you I wouldn't build a prison for ten such exalts, because one of them might have a hidden potential for feats of amazing strength they had just heretofore not been in a position to need to develop, and you run the risk of him breaking the other nine out.)
                        Last edited by Stephen Lea Sheppard; 09-22-2014, 01:45 PM.

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                        • #72
                          Originally posted by Stephen Lea Sheppard View Post
                          Just because you can spend your XP however you want doesn't mean everyone in the setting can learn anything they want.
                          I generally agree with what you've said and with this statement it just seems like pretty much all games tell you that PCs CAN do whatever they want, if only given justification. Are you mostly saying that NPCs in the setting are likely not to all do everything they want, but that notion doesn't apply to PCs? I'd agree with that. That a given NPC Twilight doesn't develop Athletics to literally pull a stone wall apart could mean that they have no aptitude fort doesn't really apply to discussions about a PC Twilight with the exact same stats and background suddenly developing and cultivating an interest in her own physical strength.

                          Granted, the system is not the setting. Especially for NPCs. And I think I might be misreading your intent, but it seems bad to me to imply that a given PC Twilight who has never had athletic aptitude can't start doing pushups and strength poses and shadowboxing in her cell sufficient to justify training dots in Athletics and then manifesting Charms that would let her tear the walls open. An NPC might fail to develop there for any number of narrative reasons (lack of focus, lack of inherent talent) but PCs don't generally work by the same justifiable rules. I think an ST who wants an NPC to take up a new field of study that is drastically different from anything they've ever done (a random Dawn who gets a bug in her bonnet to learn all about Sailing, for example) might need to stretch to justify why said Dawn had that interest, and maybe never goes anywhere in developing that interest. If that Dawn is a PC, the only real justification needed to start pursuing that training is "the player thinks it'll be fun."


                          "Chicanery-No: If a player uses this Charm in an abusive or exploitative manner, the ST may punch him right in the goddamn face." --TheDementedOne

                          "Happiness is very brittle and short-lived in the Exalted community, because ressentiment is our cultural touchstone." --Gayo

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                          • #73
                            Originally posted by Zelbinnean View Post
                            I generally agree with what you've said and with this statement it just seems like pretty much all games tell you that PCs CAN do whatever they want, if only given justification. Are you mostly saying that NPCs in the setting are likely not to all do everything they want, but that notion doesn't apply to PCs? I'd agree with that. That a given NPC Twilight doesn't develop Athletics to literally pull a stone wall apart could mean that they have no aptitude fort doesn't really apply to discussions about a PC Twilight with the exact same stats and background suddenly developing and cultivating an interest in her own physical strength.

                            Granted, the system is not the setting. Especially for NPCs. And I think I might be misreading your intent, but it seems bad to me to imply that a given PC Twilight who has never had athletic aptitude can't start doing pushups and strength poses and shadowboxing in her cell sufficient to justify training dots in Athletics and then manifesting Charms that would let her tear the walls open. An NPC might fail to develop there for any number of narrative reasons (lack of focus, lack of inherent talent) but PCs don't generally work by the same justifiable rules. I think an ST who wants an NPC to take up a new field of study that is drastically different from anything they've ever done (a random Dawn who gets a bug in her bonnet to learn all about Sailing, for example) might need to stretch to justify why said Dawn had that interest, and maybe never goes anywhere in developing that interest. If that Dawn is a PC, the only real justification needed to start pursuing that training is "the player thinks it'll be fun."
                            I really doubt they are going to mechanically enforce this and tell you to pick stuff your character sucks at and can never do after you finish picking favored abilities.




                            Exalted Whose Name is Carved in Leaves of Jade

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                            • #74
                              Yeah, that's a thing that happens to other solars. The Chosen of the Players are not so restricted.

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                              • #75
                                Originally posted by Mizu View Post
                                I really doubt they are going to mechanically enforce this and tell you to pick stuff your character sucks at and can never do after you finish picking favored abilities.
                                Sure, I wasn't suggesting that would happen to the PCs. Merely observing that NPCs often need more justification to excel in fields that they previously devoted no time to than PCs typically do. I guess that justification extends to players only insofar as how it's typically more expensive to raise non-Caste/Favored Abilities.


                                "Chicanery-No: If a player uses this Charm in an abusive or exploitative manner, the ST may punch him right in the goddamn face." --TheDementedOne

                                "Happiness is very brittle and short-lived in the Exalted community, because ressentiment is our cultural touchstone." --Gayo

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