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  • Just Another Evocations Thread

    There are a few things I want to have clarified about Evocations. From my understanding, the Evocation will be based on the magical material. You slam a red jade goremaul into the ground and fire erupts. You slam a blue jade one and there's a shockwave of air. Et cetera. Et cetera.

    What I'm having trouble visualizing is the non-elemental Evocations. I'm sure there are limitless possibilities of amazing Evocations from an orichalcum daiklave, but what kind of effect do you think we're likely to see (and more importantly, how will they be distinguished from Solar Charms)? For example, could the Evocation of an orichalcum daiklave be that it increases the morale of those around you when drawn, or is that more a Solar Charm effect? What defines whether or not it should be an Evocation and what determines whether or not it should be a Charm? Could there actually be mechanical overlaps where an Evocation works like a Charm (no pun intended) or will we expect clear definitions of "this is an Evocation" and "this is not"?

    Follow up question: Do Evocations replace classic artifact effects completely or are they merely an expansion upon an artifact that may already have other magical effects? For example, let's say a legendary artifact of jade and orichalcum called the Ashbringer cremates those it kills. Can the Ashbringer have that effect as a stand-alone power, or must it be tied into Evocations?
    Last edited by Ekorren; 10-15-2014, 04:01 PM.


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  • #2
    I would also like to know, so far I've been imagining evocations as splat charms on a stick. Red jade daiklave shoots firebolt, starmetal shuriken attaches to targets fate strand and hits, stuff like that.

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    • #3
      The answers to your questions are not known, so taking the following as the WAGs they are:

      Orichalcum evocations don't produce an effect on the world, they produce an effect on the wielder, letting him perform stupendous feats of skill. Cutting straight through armor without losing momentum, striking enemies you can't even see, and blocking strikes that cannot be blocked are all possible with orichalcum evocations. There is some overlap between what you can do with charms and evocations, but the evocations for a particular weapon are more powerful and/or diverse than the charms you could use with any weapon.

      Evocations do not replace artifacts, but the mechanics for using artifacts and the mechanics for using evocations will be quite different. Generally, I would expect that, dot for dot, evocation-powered weapons are more effective than straight artifacts once you've invested some XP into them.


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      • #4
        Originally posted by DrLoveMonkey View Post
        I would also like to know, so far I've been imagining evocations as splat charms on a stick. Red jade daiklave shoots firebolt, starmetal shuriken attaches to targets fate strand and hits, stuff like that.
        I think Lioness said somehing about Starmetal are not Sid charm on a stick so........


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        • #5
          From what I've seen, the Evocation/Magical Material relationships are roughly like this, don't quote me on this though:
          Jade (in various colors): Elemental Powers
          Soulsteel: Blood, Bone, Ghost and other general death-y powers.
          Orichalcum: I believe these are powers related to sorcery in some way (summoning Magma Kraken out of your armor)
          Starmetal: God-related powers
          Moonsilver: Powers related to changing the shape of your weapon
          Now, these can be comined in any way that you want.

          As for 'what is a Charm and what is an Evocation.' I think that there will be some overlap in terms of mechanical representation. (A sword that shoots fire when it is swung and a Charm that lets you breathe fire are probably represented Mechanically in roughly the same way, if we don't include stuntfodder). For your specific example, I'd say that could be both a Charm or an Evocation.
          And what defins wether it's an Evocation or a Charm, that depends if it comes from the artifact or from the person wielding it. Are we glad Captain Stonehoof is on our side because he is the greatest warrior our tribe knows? Or because, during one of his adventures, he slew a bizarre, firebreathing beast and it's blood like molten steel clung to his weapon when it was slain, and now his weapon, shifts and burns like that blood, and you can hear the roar of the ancient beast when he draws it?

          To answer your final question.
          It can be both, depending on the nature of the artefact. Like, this Ashbringer, if you want it to be a sword that just cremates things it stabs, then you can do that, but that does not feel like a very 'legendary' artifact to me, it feels like a magic sword that has a useful trick. Now, if the Ashbringer was some Daiklave forged with the purpose to cleanse the world of the undead, and one of those abilities was that it cremates it's victims, then yes, it would be an Evocation. Perhaps an Evocation that costs no XP to invest into, and is just something the weapon does for everyone who uses it.
          Again, it very much depends on the nature of the Artifact in Question, if it's a mask that let's you see spirits, you probably won't need Evocations, Legendary suit if armor, would be better to represent with Evocations.


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          • #6
            Originally posted by Jen View Post

            I think Lioness said somehing about Starmetal are not Sid charm on a stick so........
            Yeah but without context I can't really picture what else they could be. SIDS have charms to enhance attacks, DBs and Lunars have charms to modify and improve their weapons. So what is it about an evocation that makes it different? And why can I not have a wrack staff that lets me trace a circle around a city and go running off with it?

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            • #7
              Originally posted by DrLoveMonkey View Post
              so far I've been imagining evocations as splat charms on a stick.
              This is explicitly not accurate, though it's hard to imagine what is accurate by process of elimination. Especially for the non-elementalized MM.


              "Chicanery-No: If a player uses this Charm in an abusive or exploitative manner, the ST may punch him right in the goddamn face." --TheDementedOne

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              • #8
                So far we know:

                -Volcano Cutter is a red jade daiklave that grants powers of, appropriately, volcanos and magma, yet one of the branches on it Evocation tree has a Solar Charm prereq, meaning that branch would be proprietary to Solars.
                -There is a sword called Hurricane or something like that which, when drawn, causes a full-on hurricane to mass and start circling overhead. MM unknown, not safe to assume blue jade though.


                "Chicanery-No: If a player uses this Charm in an abusive or exploitative manner, the ST may punch him right in the goddamn face." --TheDementedOne

                "Happiness is very brittle and short-lived in the Exalted community, because ressentiment is our cultural touchstone." --Gayo

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by While My Guitar View Post
                  From what I've seen, the Evocation/Magical Material relationships are roughly like this, don't quote me on this though:
                  Jade (in various colors): Elemental Powers
                  Soulsteel: Blood, Bone, Ghost and other general death-y powers.
                  Orichalcum: I believe these are powers related to sorcery in some way (summoning Magma Kraken out of your armor)
                  Starmetal: God-related powers
                  Moonsilver: Powers related to changing the shape of your weapon
                  Now, these can be comined in any way that you want.

                  As for 'what is a Charm and what is an Evocation.' I think that there will be some overlap in terms of mechanical representation. (A sword that shoots fire when it is swung and a Charm that lets you breathe fire are probably represented Mechanically in roughly the same way, if we don't include stuntfodder). For your specific example, I'd say that could be both a Charm or an Evocation.
                  And what defins wether it's an Evocation or a Charm, that depends if it comes from the artifact or from the person wielding it. Are we glad Captain Stonehoof is on our side because he is the greatest warrior our tribe knows? Or because, during one of his adventures, he slew a bizarre, firebreathing beast and it's blood like molten steel clung to his weapon when it was slain, and now his weapon, shifts and burns like that blood, and you can hear the roar of the ancient beast when he draws it?

                  To answer your final question.
                  It can be both, depending on the nature of the artefact. Like, this Ashbringer, if you want it to be a sword that just cremates things it stabs, then you can do that, but that does not feel like a very 'legendary' artifact to me, it feels like a magic sword that has a useful trick. Now, if the Ashbringer was some Daiklave forged with the purpose to cleanse the world of the undead, and one of those abilities was that it cremates it's victims, then yes, it would be an Evocation. Perhaps an Evocation that costs no XP to invest into, and is just something the weapon does for everyone who uses it.
                  Again, it very much depends on the nature of the Artifact in Question, if it's a mask that let's you see spirits, you probably won't need Evocations, Legendary suit if armor, would be better to represent with Evocations.
                  I actually have the 2E version of the blade here. It's a bit more legendary (read OP) than my example above.

                  [5] THE ASHBRINGER [RED JADE] * This blade burns with the passion of the Exalt's primary Virtue. After at least one level of damage has been inflicted while using this sword, the target will suffer a number of additional damage dice equal to the rating of the Exalt's primary Virtue. This damage bonus is applied as a secondary damage roll after the initial damage has been rolled. It ignores armor soak, but not natural soak. * The blade can sense its wielder's intentions. Whenever the Exalt is channeling a Virtue through an offensive or a defensive action using this sword (his action must justify the use of the Virtue), the dice added from the Virtue are converted to automatic successes. Should that action be complementing a 2-dot stunt or above, the Exalt will refresh the channeled Virtue at the end of the scene. He can only do this once per Virtue per scene. * Living beings killed by this blade are instantly cremated, sending their souls either to Lethe or to Oblivion (whichever is best suited for the victim). * This blade is corrupted. Once it is attuned by an Exalt with a pure heart and with all Virtues rated 5, it will be cleansed from its corruption. The blade will then send all souls to Lethe and none to Oblivion. The additional damage applied from the Exalt's primary Virtue will then deal aggravated damage to creatures of darkness. * One hearthstone setting.


                  Edit: The reason for the blade's corruption is because it was being held (when found by the PC) by a Dragon-Blood subordinate of the custom-made Deathlord The False Hierophant with a Crown of Prophecy on a Throne of Fortune and Fate. The blade had been at the bottom of his lake of blood (The Festering Hate Pool) and absorbed the consumed hatred of a hundred thousand vile souls.
                  Last edited by Ekorren; 10-15-2014, 05:01 PM.


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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Zelbinnean View Post
                    So far we know:

                    -Volcano Cutter is a red jade daiklave that grants powers of, appropriately, volcanos and magma, yet one of the branches on it Evocation tree has a Solar Charm prereq, meaning that branch would be proprietary to Solars.
                    -There is a sword called Hurricane or something like that which, when drawn, causes a full-on hurricane to mass and start circling overhead. MM unknown, not safe to assume blue jade though.
                    I think it's fairly safe to assume blue jade. I'm just confused about how summoning a hurricane with a sword and summoning one with a DB charm is so different. Don't get me wrong, I'm happy that Golden Anvil, badass solar Twilight can have a hammer that gives him command of forge fire to burn and melt things. I'm just wondering how it's fundamentally different to subsume your anima with fire from your hammer and use it to help you rocket jump and flamethrower and stuff as opposed to just being a fire aspect with native DB charms.

                    That's not even counting the more esoteric powers of the celestial exalted.

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                    • #11
                      Argh, there was a definite post about orichalcum allowing for sorcerous powers or the like and starmetal allowing for god powers, but I don't have the time or inclination to go digging through the huge RPG.net thread. Does anyone know if there's an easy way to get the Search function to dredge up individual posts? Maybe just a site-specific Google search...?

                      EDIT: Ahhah! Yes. That was the solution.
                      Originally posted by hatewheel
                      Magical material is the determining factor in the style of Evocations. Red jade will engender a lot of fire magic, while starmetal gives you god magic. Orichalcum is full of sorcerous power, while soulsteel reaps blood and souls. And so on and so forth.
                      Not... a lot of details there, but still! Orichalcum at least appears to not overlap so much with what one would expect Solar Melee to do, as a rule.

                      EDIT2: ... Blah, and While My Guitar kinda dipped into that while I was typing. Though I disagree with that interpretation of what "sorcerous power" means. I think there's been a conflation with that other quote about combining Sorcery spells with artifact crafting to get gnarly Evocations. That feels too narrow a space for all orichalcum Evocations.

                      And yes, Evocations are definitely not the only powers an artifact can possess:

                      Originally posted by John Mørke
                      I am looking at point build systems and giving magical materials laundry lists of special merits and powers and Evocations, and letting you build alloy weapons and armor so you can incorporate the bennies from different MMs into a single artifact.
                      Originally posted by Zelbinnean View Post
                      This is explicitly not accurate, though it's hard to imagine what is accurate by process of elimination. Especially for the non-elementalized MM.
                      There may be some overlap, broadly speaking. It sounds like Solars aren't likely to favor Starmetal over any other MM, while Sidereals will drop everything to go running after falling stars. That suggests whatever Starmetal Evocations offer to Sidereals* is distinct from what their native Charms can do, though will likely synergize especially well with it. If the Magical Material is so important, they may get firmer and broader identities.

                      I remember Vance said there would be a difference between a hypothetical set of Dragonblooded Archery Charms that turned one's bow into a tree and a hypothetical array of Green Jade Evocations that did something similar. It may just take more example artifacts and Evocation arrays before it becomes clear.

                      * Not unlike "sorcerous power, it can be tricky to say what exactly "god powers" means at this point.


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                      • #12
                        The daiklave is called Storm Caller.


                        He/him

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                        • #13
                          God/sorcery/ghost powers I can see giving some fodder for stuff unlike native charms, but shape shifting and elemental basically encompass DB and Lunar themes. Maybe moonsilver could have more wyld like powers? Still at a total loss as to how jade evocations aren't DB charms though.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by While My Guitar View Post
                            Moonsilver: Powers related to changing the shape of your weapon
                            Seems pretty crappy compared, to, y'know, elements and god powers and fucking sorcery.


                            "Chicanery-No: If a player uses this Charm in an abusive or exploitative manner, the ST may punch him right in the goddamn face." --TheDementedOne

                            "Happiness is very brittle and short-lived in the Exalted community, because ressentiment is our cultural touchstone." --Gayo

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                            • #15
                              This has probably been asked before, but is there any official word on Evocations from artifacts that aren't weapons? I'm really curious what sorts of powers one would be able to get from a white jade and orichalcum crown, or a green jade girdle, or an orichalcum and starmetal calligraphy brush.


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