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Mnemon, why are you so Mean ?

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  • #61
    Originally posted by Zelbinnean View Post
    That's just confusing.
    You know there are people in real life who keep their own names when they get married?


    I have approximate knowledge of many things.
    Write up as I play Xenoblade Chronicles.

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    • #62
      Originally posted by Isator Levi View Post
      You know there are people in real life who keep their own names when they get married?
      I do, but most people today aren't members of culturally distinct and politically important noble families.


      "Chicanery-No: If a player uses this Charm in an abusive or exploitative manner, the ST may punch him right in the goddamn face." --TheDementedOne

      "Happiness is very brittle and short-lived in the Exalted community, because ressentiment is our cultural touchstone." --Gayo

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      • #63
        She's mean because she knows her fashion game is absolute shit and has deemed fit to take out her frustration on everyone around her.

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        • #64
          Originally posted by Zelbinnean
          I do, but most people today aren't members of culturally distinct and politically important noble families.
          I don't see the line connecting that to whether or not men take their wives names.


          I have approximate knowledge of many things.
          Write up as I play Xenoblade Chronicles.

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          • #65
            Originally posted by Isator Levi View Post
            I don't see the line connecting that to whether or not men take their wives names.
            Eh maybe nothing, I'd just see it like L5R where the more important person (higher status) keeps their surname.


            "Chicanery-No: If a player uses this Charm in an abusive or exploitative manner, the ST may punch him right in the goddamn face." --TheDementedOne

            "Happiness is very brittle and short-lived in the Exalted community, because ressentiment is our cultural touchstone." --Gayo

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            • #66
              Originally posted by Two-Shadows View Post
              She's mean because she knows her fashion game is absolute shit and has deemed fit to take out her frustration on everyone around her.
              Nah, maybe subconsciously she knows it but consciously she refuses to admit it to herself. If she admitted it she would use some of her wealth to hire a famous fashion designer or something.


              Exalted Whose Name is Carved in Leaves of Jade

              Senator of the Greater Chamber

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              • #67
                Incidentally in the game with Sapphire Rhea, my Lunar did address the issue of fashion with Mnemon. Her main victory was replacing the clown shoes (see the cover of Aspect book Earth) with something that looked more appealing without compromising foot support.

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                • #68
                  Originally posted by Zelbinnean View Post
                  Man you can really read in some Kiryuuin Satsuki/Kiryuuin Ragyuu (Kill la Kill) parallels with Mnemnon and Her Redness.

                  Even though, funnily enough, Mnemon is more like Ragyo than Satsuki, and the Empress is apparently more like Satsuki than Ragyo.


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                  • #69
                    Originally posted by Zelbinnean View Post

                    Eh maybe nothing, I'd just see it like L5R where the more important person (higher status) keeps their surname.
                    Well, that does happen when one is a DB and the other isn't.

                    To be honest, if you read the Aspect books, half the writers don't seem to be able to decide how the system works. The rule is supposed to be that the kids are in the mum's house, for example, but in that case what about House Ragara? Why isn't it named after his wife's house?
                    There are various other examples to be honest.
                    I think it's, in practice, a lot more fluid than the standard rules, and it is possible for a really powerful dude to have kids from his house. for example.


                    I play...
                    Kovan, actor, librarian, sorcerer, great bear, Lunar Elder from the First Age
                    Thutmose-Osiris, seventh son of a seventh son, descendant of the Supreme Deity Sukhmet, renegade demigod and bearer of the Ghoul-Banishing Bow. Also bright green.

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                    • #70
                      Originally posted by Zelbinnean View Post
                      I'd just see it like L5R where the more important person (higher status) keeps their surname.
                      I'm wary of a sentiment like this, simply because I doubt anybody would have batted an eye if it had been a system in which wives simply take their husband's family names.

                      That and the extent of arguments some people have formed against the matrilineality. It's like "hey, you'd think those arguments should apply against real life patrilineality, and they do, and yet people have still managed to have their irrational cultural biases, so get over it maybe".


                      I have approximate knowledge of many things.
                      Write up as I play Xenoblade Chronicles.

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                      • #71
                        Indeed. The Empress is a lady, it's not particularly weird to them that its women's names.
                        I'm not a fan of the men taking their wives' names, not because it's weird (it'd be fine in the Realm normally). But because that signifies they've changed house. I think the political stories (and that's about 2/3rds of the fun of playing dynasts) are more interesting if the husband and wife are in two different families so they might end up on opposite sides of schemes and the likely coming civil war.
                        Though saying this of course, stories about the character changing house are also interesting in their own way. Will they fit in? What if the two families fight, will they be loyal to their new house or old house?
                        The main thing is just that at no point in the books does it ever actually give examples of men changing house, or even changing their names (possibly this is because many of the writers were men, and forgot. But then they forgot many other things: as much as I love Sesus Negezzer's time-travelling V'neef father, they should have thought that through).
                        So it seems easier to say they keep their names but the kids are in the girl's house, because its consistent with the canon characters.
                        Also, I can't see the Houses wanting to give up Dragonblood to another house. Medieval aristocratic houses were not generally that bothered by giving up their daughters to another house, because they believed that girls were largely useless except for producing kids (and that's not unique to medieval aristocrats: one of my students told me her grandparents strangled her girl cousin at birth, and it's taken her 20 years of hard work to convince her grandparents that she's worth as much as a boy). But the Realm houses might generally think women are a little better, but they still think DB dudes are very useful.

                        Also: in defence of matrilineal succession as per aristocratic houses.
                        When you think about it, it makes perfect sense. In a patrilineal system, if V'neef Dude Man marries Pelleps Lady Girl, and she gives birth to a baby V'neef... well, is it really a V'neef? How do we know the father isn't that sly and treacherous Ragara Cheaty Dude? We can't be sure. But 16 years later, when V'neef Baby Girl exalts as an Earth Aspect, V'neef Dude Man starts to wonder if he's really the father.
                        But, in a matrilineal system, if V'neef Dude Man marries Pelleps Lady Girl, and she gives birth to a baby Pelleps, well unless there was some really serious shenanigans with a Neomah and a ton of mind-bending drugs, we can be pretty sure that it most definitely is a Pelleps. And if in the end it grows up to exalt as an Earth Aspect and Ragara Cheaty Dude tells young Pelleps Baby Girl that "I am your father!", well, it doesn't really matter. She's still a Pelleps, regardless of who her father was.
                        So honestly, this is by far the best system for a society which places so much emphasis on geneology.

                        Though, I will reiterate: while I think its fine for kids to take the mum's name, being the Emperor's own son has to trump that, because otherwise House Ragara (named after the guy who founded it, not his wife) makes no sense.
                        Last edited by The Wizard of Oz; 11-17-2014, 07:30 AM.


                        I play...
                        Kovan, actor, librarian, sorcerer, great bear, Lunar Elder from the First Age
                        Thutmose-Osiris, seventh son of a seventh son, descendant of the Supreme Deity Sukhmet, renegade demigod and bearer of the Ghoul-Banishing Bow. Also bright green.

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                        • #72
                          Matrilineal succession is also useful for numerical management among the Scarlet Dynasty. Theoretically a male dragon-blooded can father a disgusting number of dragon-blooded children, like in the hundreds, while the functional cap for a female is much, much lower, probably no more than twenty tops. A matrilineal system dramatically reduces the level of variance involved in dragon-blooded succession and turnover, at least as far as legitimacy is concerned, which goes an awful long way toward making the dynast and the houses manageable entities.

                          In terms of House Ragara's specific case, it might be that Ragara's wife was a dragon-blood outside of the Scarlet Dynasty. It would make sense for the empress to try and systematically merge holdover lineages from the shogunate into her own family tree by nomenclatural co-opting of that sort.


                          Whitescrub Tundra Project: a fan-made setting reference for Exalted 3e.
                          Edge of Underleaves A pair of dragon-blooded dare the jungles of the southwest.

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                          • #73
                            Yes, I assumed that's what happened. Presumably the very first houses to form weren't all formed by girls marrying their half-brothers.


                            I play...
                            Kovan, actor, librarian, sorcerer, great bear, Lunar Elder from the First Age
                            Thutmose-Osiris, seventh son of a seventh son, descendant of the Supreme Deity Sukhmet, renegade demigod and bearer of the Ghoul-Banishing Bow. Also bright green.

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              Originally posted by Isator Levi View Post
                              I'm wary of a sentiment like this, simply because I doubt anybody would have batted an eye if it had been a system in which wives simply take their husband's family names.
                              I don't know why you think they're similar. The latter is OOC cultural bias exerting an effect.

                              Originally posted by Isator Levi View Post
                              That and the extent of arguments some people have formed against the matrilineality. It's like "hey, you'd think those arguments should apply against real life patrilineality, and they do, and yet people have still managed to have their irrational cultural biases, so get over it maybe".
                              I didn't argue against matrilineality at all.


                              "Chicanery-No: If a player uses this Charm in an abusive or exploitative manner, the ST may punch him right in the goddamn face." --TheDementedOne

                              "Happiness is very brittle and short-lived in the Exalted community, because ressentiment is our cultural touchstone." --Gayo

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                I have a concept for a Solar youth who, before he Exalted, was a low-ranking sailor for a couple of years on a merchant vessel that sailed around the Realm. He had the privilege of meeting Mnemon once (and she probably didn't even notice him except as furniture, since he was delivering something to her). He similarly had opportunity to meet the Roseblack. Being a teen, and them being gorgeous, he was smitten with both.

                                After Exalting and realizing some of the troubles plaguing his homeland (he's Realm-born and raised), the young Eclipse developed the Motivation to win both of their hearts and convince them to work together to unite the Realm as co-Empresses (or in whatever relationship they could work out). He had no real interest in being Emperor, but he'd be happy being royal consort to the Empresses. Or to the Empress and her chief general, or however it worked out. His Motivation is to truly woo and love both of them, and get them to put aside any personal and political differences in favor of their shared affection for him and their mutual patriotism for the Realm. To be the pumice stone on which any rough edges of personal conflicting ambitions they may have could be ground away, and a point of trust they could rely on to ease concerns that either would backstab the other.

                                I know, I know, an Eclipse caste with a harem anime goal. Whoddathunkit? (Certainly is ambitious enough for a Solar.)

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