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  • Second Circle Roles

    Originally posted by Scroll of Glorious Divinity II, p. 14
    ...a Second Circle demon will fulfill one of seven functions for her patron Third Circle demon. She will be her patron’s ability to reflect, communicate, protect, understand, gratify, express or define. (Yet whether - for example - Berengiere represents Ligier’s ability to indulge himself, indulge others or both is a matter of much debate.
    The above is the extent of the information given on the roles of second circle demons in relation to their progenitors, which is itself a slightly lengthened paraphrase of what was said in Games of Divinity and is repeated again in On Titanic Souls I. So then what I'm interested in is the distinction between the roles. It could be said that Berengiere represents both internal and external indulgence; that one is rather obvious. What, then, is the difference between communicating and expressing? Gervesin brings the glory of the Green Sun to Creation, so that would be an external form, but if expressing is merely an internal form, then those two roles would seem lesser than that of indulgence (gratification). Sondok's role as warden (protection) is also both internal and external in that her guarding of Ligier's loot is obvious, while her own actions are indicative of Malfeas' possessiveness.

    If instead, expression is given a role less related to communication, how would it be different from the internal role of understanding? Likewise, is the difference between both the internal and external roles of understanding and defining? If defining is more focused on a singular point while understanding deals with generalizations, wouldn't that be getting needlessly specific anyway?

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  • #2
    By design. The divisions are not clean. What makes expression different from communication *in the general case* is not important. What is important is how a given 2nd circle represents their role (and how a given 3rd circle fills each of their roles).

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    • #3
      Sach wrote an essay on that (and other demonic thing) on the last forum. The Scroll of Limbs, as he called it. Here it is, though I really need to work on the editing and the presentation.

      A lot of ramblings, some that actually seem to make a bit of sense!

      But yeah, all you're going to get are speculations : the seven "roles" are meant to be interpreted and twisted around with a lot of leeway, so as to allow you to create pretty much any second circle you could want.


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      • #4
        If that's your document, you may want to open it to general viewing.


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        • #5
          The whole seven souls is just stuff that add nuance to Hell, kinda like the Yozi's love of art and dancing, or Zsofika having extra joint on her fingers Gumela looking for something name Mayoigo,...etc. Trying to explain those things just make your head want to explode.


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          • #6
            I've considered the idea that rather than having ability based excellencies spirits should have their own dice-adders that provide a bonus when taking actions appropriate to their nature, rather like a simplified version of the Yozi Excellencies.

            In the case of Second Circle demons what type of soul they are would play a major role in defining their nature, Sondok would be at her most powerful when she had something to protect etc.


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            • #7
              Originally posted by ThatBlueGuy View Post
              If that's your document, you may want to open it to general viewing.
              Done.
              I'm an idiot. ^^


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              • #8
                Originally posted by Lioness View Post
                I've considered the idea that rather than having ability based excellencies spirits should have their own dice-adders that provide a bonus when taking actions appropriate to their nature, rather like a simplified version of the Yozi Excellencies.

                In the case of Second Circle demons what type of soul they are would play a major role in defining their nature, Sondok would be at her most powerful when she had something to protect etc.
                I think that's a brilliant idea that would add a lot of characterisation. Not sure how it would work balance-wise.


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                • #9
                  Originally posted by JohnDoe244 View Post
                  I think that's a brilliant idea that would add a lot of characterisation. Not sure how it would work balance-wise.
                  I'm not so much worried about internal balance between Second Circle Demons and more about potentially limiting their utility as NPCs.


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                  • #10
                    Second Circle roles are typical rather than universal, descriptive rather than prescriptive. I do not anticipate that they will have any mechanics attached in 3e.


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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Lioness View Post
                      I'm not so much worried about internal balance between Second Circle Demons and more about potentially limiting their utility as NPCs.
                      Agreed. They're not intended as PC options, so it's a very quick, easy, and natural way for STs to make them especially effective where they're supposed to be especially effective. A manual thanks for the very good idea!

                      Originally posted by Eric Minton View Post
                      Second Circle roles are typical rather than universal, descriptive rather than prescriptive. I do not anticipate that they will have any mechanics attached in 3e.
                      This post pleases me. Would you let me know if this is the right idea: Third Circles typically have the described 7 Second Circles as initially described, but could well have more or fewer or what they have could possess entirely different roles, if such is appropriate to the nature of the Third Circle in question.
                      Last edited by Gaius; 12-22-2013, 03:23 PM.


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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Gaius View Post
                        Would you let me know if this is the right idea: Third Circles typically have the described 7 Second Circles as initially described, but could well have more or fewer or what they have could possess entirely different roles, if such is appropriate to the nature of the Third Circle in question.
                        Yes, that's correct.


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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Eric Minton View Post
                          Second Circle roles are typical rather than universal, descriptive rather than prescriptive. I do not anticipate that they will have any mechanics attached in 3e.

                          Okay I'll be cool if they don't have any mechanics attached, since they didn't really in 1st and 2nd ed, but will we still get an impression that they impact the 3rd circle and its just more freeform how the ST wants to portray the effects/connection?


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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by LeTipex View Post
                            Done.
                            I'm an idiot. ^^
                            Thiiiiiiis is what I wanted. There's always a pattern, even if you have to make one up.


                            I'm working on it, all right?

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Eric Minton View Post
                              Second Circle roles are typical rather than universal, descriptive rather than prescriptive. I do not anticipate that they will have any mechanics attached in 3e.
                              Makes sense.
                              Even if there were only the seven types it's worth noting that Octavian and Mara are both defining souls which should be taken as an indicator of how damaging that kind of forced symmetry could be.


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