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How to make a Wyld hunt Incompetent but not too incompetent

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  • #46
    One thing to keep in mind is that "Anathema" in third edition will not just mean "the Celestial Exalted". The target of Wyld Hunts will be any supernatural threat to the Immaculate Philosophy, and there are plenty of such in the Riverlands.

    Plus while Lookshy's Immaculate Faith might be less evangelical/fanatical that the Immaculate Order, it does promote the path of the Righteous Warrior so Wyld Hunts will definitely be a thing Gente's do to (im)prove themselves.

    Another thing is that in second edition Lookshy wasn't exactly welcome-with-open-arms friendly towards visiting Solars. It was presented as more of a guarded wariness. Sort of a, "we've got bigger things to worry about right now, so if you don't make trouble, the Legion won't crush you," kind of thing.

    Lookshy will likely still take pains for its hunts not to be seen as rank imperialism. The Realm can send out it's Shikari to curbstomp through it's satrapies, but Lookshy will have to navigate carefully through the politics of the River Province and only send hunts after clear and agreed threats.

    So Lookshy having Wyld Hunts is not incompatible with the city not being automatically hostile to every Solar passing through.

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    • #47
      Originally posted by Aquillion
      The Wyld Hunt is what it is in the Realm because the Empress has been pushing it constantly from above as part of her deal with the Sidereals
      Possibly, but going by the excerpt in the Kickstarter post, even then it's not an official institution. It might receive support, but it's still basically something a group of private individuals get together and engage in at their own discretion, even if cultural propriety demands that an Immaculate master always run the show. I admit, I actually wonder how much that specific quote of Holden's from way back when still holds force...
      Originally posted by Aquillion
      This is not the same thing, obviously, as saying that they never engage in Wyld Hunts -- I'm sure they do, now and then. But they have no built-in incentives the way the Realm does
      Again going by the Kickstarter post, it seems that their incentive is a matter of culturally reaffirming the dominance of the Dragon Blooded. Some of the lines suggest that if a group of Terrestrial officers get together and collectively and privately decide to, say, assinate a troublesome prince of the Confederation who is causing trouble for Lookshy, that could qualify as a Wyld Hunt.


      I have approximate knowledge of many things.
      Write up as I play Xenoblade Chronicles.

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      • #48
        Originally posted by Greyman View Post
        One thing to keep in mind is that "Anathema" in third edition will not just mean "the Celestial Exalted".
        You have a citation for this, because all evidence read actually stipulates that yes, Anathema are a specific thing.

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        • #49
          Originally posted by Godjaw View Post

          You have a citation for this, because all evidence read actually stipulates that yes, Anathema are a specific thing.
          Yes: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects...n/posts/733062
          Here is an excerpt from the EX3 text covering the dread institution of the Wyld Hunt:
          The Immaculates apply the technical term Anathema—in the Realm it’s a formal clerical finding—to anything that the order finds abhorrent to stable and prosperous life. Solar and Lunar Exalted are always Anathema; the label can also potentially encompass Fair Folk, beastmen, elementals, and demons who threaten Realm interests, as well as gods and their Exigent champions who’ve gone into open rebellion against the Immaculate Philosophy.

          Though it does go on to add that in practice it is most often associated exclusively with solar and lunar. But if the Terrestrials can agree that something is a threat that cannot be tolerated, a Wyld Hunt is often viewed as a righteous and proper response,

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          • #50
            Originally posted by Greyman View Post
            Yes: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects...n/posts/733062

            Though it does go on to add that in practice it is most often associated exclusively with solar and lunar. But if the Terrestrials can agree that something is a threat that cannot be tolerated, a Wyld Hunt is often viewed as a righteous and proper response,

            This is rather strange, because we have direct quotes from Holden saying the exact opposite.

            http://avatarcomic.net/ExaltedWiki/m...p?title=Exalts

            "Anathema" is a category referring specifically to the Solar and Lunar Exalted (and hypothetically to the Abyssals, since they're compatible with Immaculate depictions of the Solars and legends of Danaa'd locking the Solars away in the Underworld). (Holden)

            Q: The undead are considered Anathema, aren't they? (Inugami)
            A: No. The Anathema are a specific thing, not an Immaculate buzzword for "anything we think is grody." (Holden)

            Also, since people have asked quite a few times-- no, Exigents aren't Anathema. The Immaculate Order and its Sidereal architects aren't simpletons and in the bigger, wider setting of EX3, "all non-DB Exalts" isn't a workable Anathema definition. Exigents basically fall under the same heading as God-Blooded-- the result of improper congress between gods and mortals, and thus shameful and karmically banjaxed, but not the end of the world or anything. (Holden)
            Last edited by Godjaw; 12-21-2014, 12:43 AM.

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            • #51
              Originally posted by Godjaw View Post
              Did the Shogunate end? Lookshy still follows the old Shogunate, the animosity between Lookshy and the Empire is because they didn't recognize the Empress as a the new Shogun, so it became the Scarlet Empire instead. Lookshy is what is left of the Shogunate, and part of their plans to hold over the Riverlands is rebuilding the Shogunate.
              Yes, it did end. Lookshy might retain certain aspects of its identity from back then, but it hasn't existed in a time-capsule.

              Even if it hadn't, like I said above, I seriously doubt that the Wyld Hunt remained unabated and evenly-followed as a perfectly unchanged cultural institution from the date of the Usurpation to the Great Contagion. It would have been more pressing early on, and would have had more drive behind it early on; and as time passed, the DBs who remembered Anathema at their height would die off, and the Wyld Hunt would lose its urgency. The Sidereals saw this; that was why one of their demands to help prop up the Empress was that she continuously push back against Anathema. They would not have made this such an important part of their agreement if they didn't think it was necessary.

              Lookshy has just as much an incentive to have an active Wyld Hunt as the Empire.
              It absolutely does not. The Empress' power, at least in part, is derived from the Bronze Faction supporting her. In exchange for that support, the Bronze Faction demanded (essentially) one thing. That thing was the Wyld Hunt as practiced by the Realm, and the degree of institutional support the Realm provides for it; as well as Sidereal control of the Immaculate Faith, as manipulated by the Sidereals and used to continuously reinforce pressure against Anathema.

              Lookshy doesn't subscribe to the same Immaculate Faith as the Realm. They're, like... Greek Orthodox Christians, in a world where the sole purpose of the Pope is secretly to ensure that the religion constantly hates Anathema. They do not accept the Mouth of Peace, who is seen as a tool of the Realm. She sort-of is a tool of the Realm, but she is definitely primarily there to make sure that the Realm continues to hunt Anathema as part of the Sidereals' big plan. Saying that Lookshy has the same incentives as the Realm to hunt Anathema makes a mockery, in other words, of everything the Bronze Faction has been doing in that regard in the Realm for the past 700 years.

              Does Lookshy inherit the basic story of the Great Uprising and the core beliefs about Anathema? Definitely. Are Anathema seen as reincarnating soul-eating sorcerers? Yes. You cannot walk around in Lookshy with your Solar or Lunar anima flared and expect people to just shrug it off, no. They totally remember that they fought a war against Anathema untold centuries ago.

              But are those beliefs anywhere near as important in Lookshy as they are in the Realm (where, again, the Mouth of Peace has existed for the past 700 years specifically to reinforce anti-Anathema dogma)? No. Nowhere remotely as significant, politically or culturally. That would be nonsensical. Sure, anathema are dangerous, but so are rogue gods, and rival nations, and mortal warlords, and fair folk and ghosts and demons and other DBs and Tyrant Lizards and bears. The unique focus on Anathema held by the Realm and its state religion is something that was deliberately worked out in a deal between Kejak Chejop and the Empress, not an intrinsic part of all DB DNA everywhere.


              And, again, I'll reiterate the other part of this (since I think it's equally important) -- what I've described above is why it makes sense for Lookshy to have less focus on hunting Anathema than the Realm, and to be more open to at least temporary alliances (even if they tell themselves that they'll deal with you later or something), why the Threshold is generally a safer place for Anathema to flash their anima without immediately getting Lookshy sending a Wyld Hunt into their face. 2e might have described this a bit badly, but I don't find the outcry about it to be remotely convincing -- it makes perfect sense for Lookshy's outlook on Anathema to have drifted from the Realm's in the past 700 years, during which the Realm had a leadership whose sole religious mandate was secretly "KILL ANATHEMA KILL THEM NOW THE WORLD DEPENDS ON THIS" and Lookshy didn't.

              But the question, to me, is "do we want the books to show Lookshy and the Realm differ this way?" And I think that the answer is "obviously, yes." Part of the purpose of Lookshy (and other groups of DBs outside the Realm) is to let people tell stories with them that could not be told with the Realm.
              Last edited by Aquillion; 12-21-2014, 04:35 AM.

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              • #52
                Originally posted by Godjaw View Post
                This is rather strange, because we have direct quotes from Holden saying the exact opposite.

                http://avatarcomic.net/ExaltedWiki/m...p?title=Exalts
                I don't think the two need be mutually exclusive. Holden may have just meant that Lunars and Solars (and theoretically Abyssals) are the only entities that are always pegged as Anathema. That said, if the passages do contradict, I'd go with the KS update: if I recall correctly, the forum quote came out well before the KS one, so the KS remark is probably the most up-to-date.


                The EX3 What We Know Wiki, courtesy of Marin and JMobius
                Nishkriya, the EX3 Freelancer Quotes Tracker, courtesy of Anathema and Moonwolf
                The White Wolf Forum Archive, courtesy of The Dark Wizard and Sanctaphrax (see its Patreon)
                Arrghus: There's also the Shepherd of the North Star, busily guiding the one thing in all the heavens that doesn't move.

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                • #53
                  I think a really important thing to work out first would be if outcaste Wyld Hunts go after anathema or not, because apparently outcaste Wyld Hunts exist now. Basically if hunting anathema is so steeped into the culture that DBs everywhere of every nationality do it then Lookshy needs a good reason to be the odd one out.

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                  • #54
                    I think the key question regarding Lookshy would have to be whether the fact that they don't have a specific administrative apparatus to enable Wyld Hunts means that the number of individuals who gather together to independently act in the spirit of their religion is insignificant. If one is drawing a comparison to denominations of Chistianity, I'd say it's like the difference between Catholicism having a doctrine of salvation through good works, and thus charitable organisations embedded right in its hierarchy, and denominations that lack or reject that doctrine and, if they even have hierarchies at all, lacking organisations devoted to it, but where there are still members of those faiths who collectively engage in charity work in the spirit of Christianity. Or the difference between missionary work in Catholicism (lauded, but not mandatory) and the Church of Latter Day Saints (all able bodied people are expected to take part), where the Realm maps to the latter. It would appear that when it comes to Lookshy, while the actual government does not directly support Wyld Hunts, and while the locally placed Immaculate Faith doesn't really have a hierarchy to organise them, if you're an Immaculate Dragon Blood who knows of Anathema and doesn't at least support the idea that a bunch of your fellows should get together and hunt them down, then you're a bad Immaculate. Lookshy still seems liberal (for want of a better word) enough to tolerate those individuals who opt not to Wyld Hunt, or even to aid Anathema, but it will probably cause tensions in their society, like the Medieval European attitude to Polish Christians engaging in cordial diplomatic and trade relations with Slavic "pagans"; a Dragon Blood who does the opposite of Wyld Hunt who goes to a Gens get-together for winter festival is getting into an argument with some family members, at the very least.


                    I have approximate knowledge of many things.
                    Write up as I play Xenoblade Chronicles.

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                    • #55
                      Likewise, Mnemon dealing with the Mask of Winters is probably like some early modern European nations having alliances and open relations with the Ottoman Empire; sure you're a ravaging horde from out of the east that threatens to sweep over all civilisation, and we definitely believe that you're living in sin and are going straight to Hell, but we have common enemies and/or you have luxury items we want, so that should be no impediment to us getting along for a bit. It's a relationship that definitely plays out differently to one where those issues aren't present; the belief that you can exploit, even get along with, terrible heathenous monsters doesn't mean you're tolerent of them.


                      I have approximate knowledge of many things.
                      Write up as I play Xenoblade Chronicles.

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                      • #56
                        Originally posted by Zelbinnean View Post
                        Yeah that is very problematic. She'd probably be better in a "Zak failed Basic Flight but I passed him" type of scenario (with her as Zak - BSG reference, btw). Or just "I had such great connections and my instructor was one of daddy's old Brotherhood buddies so he passed me" type of stuff - which is VERY evocative of real-life scenarios. Would explain a few things about her being up jumped without hitting the Brannigan threshold.
                        Originally posted by Isator Levi View Post
                        Personally, I'd redo Liara as somebody who would be a lot better as a socialite, but is under intense pressure due to her family. She doesn't really recognise the fact that she'd rather be doing something else, and her misuse of subordinates is a combination of venting unexamined frustration, lashing out against people she's jealous of for having a better handle on their situations, and desperately hoping that one of them will have a success she can validate herself with.
                        It really depends on what you want from her as an NPC.
                        She's more like the latter in our Infernals game but she was never the physical antagonist that the Ex2 Antagonists section intended her to be, I'd probably feel kind of bad about hitting this version of her.


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                        • #57
                          Originally posted by Gaius View Post

                          I don't think the two need be mutually exclusive. Holden may have just meant that Lunars and Solars (and theoretically Abyssals) are the only entities that are always pegged as Anathema. That said, if the passages do contradict, I'd go with the KS update: if I recall correctly, the forum quote came out well before the KS one, so the KS remark is probably the most up-to-date.
                          To add to this, there could easily be different uses of the term. Realm officials might limit Anathema to Solars and Lunars, but a group of outcastes who band together to take out a group of Fae could still easily call the beings they fought Anathema even if the bureaucrats in the Realm would disagree.



                          If you want to play Thomas Edison, you'd better be up to the task of carrying all of civilization through the Renaissance and Industrial Revolution, while the Sidereals and Dragon-Blooded are shooting at you.

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                          • #58
                            oh curious?

                            Tepet lisara, or Cathak Draegoth.

                            How vulnerable are they to Verdant emptyness endowment, especialy if Use it to make them competent

                            or is that impossible?


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                            • #59
                              Originally posted by Isator Levi View Post
                              Likewise, Mnemon dealing with the Mask of Winters is probably like some early modern European nations having alliances and open relations with the Ottoman Empire; sure you're a ravaging horde from out of the east that threatens to sweep over all civilisation, and we definitely believe that you're living in sin and are going straight to Hell,
                              The Ottomans were not a ravening horde; you're thinking of the Mongols. And while they were definitely seen as Muslim outsiders i most of Europe, they were also seen as too seductive. When the Ottomans raided Cornwall for slaves (and, yes, the Ottomans raided England), and Charles II sent a delegate to negotiate a mass release, most stayed put - Algerian house slave was better than English dirt farmer. And the Voltarian Clusterf*ck was always worried local potentates would jump ship - which more than a handful did for better pay.

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                              • #60
                                Originally posted by Aquillion View Post
                                SNIP.
                                I disagree vehemently.

                                The Immaculate Order is there to legitimize the Scarlet Empire and to create a stable platform of control over Creation. The Wyld Hunt was one of those responsibilites it had, but the Bronze Faction wanted a center of stability and control in Creation, that is the Scarlet Empire and it's expansionist methods. They didn't make the Empire to have lackeys to throw at Anathema. That's absurd. The Immaculate Faith was created to legitmize the superiority and rule of Dragonblooded, and professes self improvement and enlightenment, and denounces Anathema. The Order is more a political tool, with it's Mouth of Peace, the Faith is more a dogma, a relic of the Shogunate.

                                The Anathema are just as much of a threat to Lookshy as they are to the Empire. They have a strong Dragonblooded identity and are strongly in Immaculate Faith. Yes they don't have a designated Wyld Hunt institution. This is because there are constant patrols across the Riverlands and any one of those patrols can enact a Wyld Hunt if necessary. The Wyld Hunt for the Empire is an institution, the Wyld Hunt of Lookshy is a military activity.

                                Should Lookshy tell different stories than the Realm? Yes. Lookshy is a united Dragonblooded group where the Realm is on the brink of civil war. They're a military state, where the Empire is basically now run by self-interested Great Houses. Lookshy military efforts are expanding it's influence. The Realm is shrinking as it's resources are called back to the Isle. Lookshy serves the part of a pressing threat to Solars/Anathema in the Riverlands, where there is often little guaranteed threat or resistance. Their legions are often on patrols, and have garrisons throughout. Do they actively hunt them? No there are no patrols searching out Anathema, but if one is discovered you can bet one such patrol will enact a Wyld Hunt after them. It is incredibly unlikely for them to ally with one, unless a much more pressing matter or greater enemy is present. They know even temporary alliances can sway you under the Anathema's influence.

                                I forsee with the much more active Mask of Winters this time around, Immaculate Faith propaganda will be spread by Lookshy, speaking of the terrible "Anathema" that lead his armies, and to watch out for them, for they could be spies of the MoW.

                                Last edited by Godjaw; 12-22-2014, 05:52 AM.

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