3e & Fan updates: An Autocthonian Quandry

[kawaiiwolf]

Some of the things we know about 3rd edition:

• 3rd Edition Core is coming out "Soon"
• We can expect to wait quite some time (i.e.: years) before Alchemical Exalts feel the love
• Creating your own charms in 3rd edition and other such conversions are claimed to be not terribly difficult, once you have them conceptually nailed down

So given the long delay between updating the core and the splat, my group already has plans to update our Autocthonian game right away. We don't mind doing all the nitty gritty conversions and already have a number of ideas to help in that regard. I know there have been a good number of fan made creations released here and there, but I think we run into an interesting problem from an intellectual property standpoint. The Charms in 1st and 2nd edition can be kept conceptually, but will need a mechanics overhaul to get them in line with new design and game mechanics; does it step on any legal toes if fans were to unofficially take the concepts of those older charms and update them for use in 3rd edition and release them in a public (and non-profit) forum (e.g.: Here) for other fans to use ?

It'd really help to get some official-ish responses here, to set a prescient for 3rd edition fan updates before we really start seeing them crop up. We'll be updating Alchemicals for our table regardless, using both iconic, namebrand charms and a number of our own design, but where is the line in the sand drawn when it comes to sharing that with others ?

[Kyeudo]

Fair use goes a long way, especially when no money is involved. I know I plan on posting my 3e version of Masters of the Industrial Elements as soon as it is ready.

[kawaiiwolf]

Fair use goes a long way when it comes to commentary, criticism and review, but isn't so cut and dry when it comes to derivative work. The point being, the original works are still Onyx Path's intellectual property. While in the past we've seen no issue taken with fan re-writes, examples being Martial Arts trees, that doesn't mean this sort of work won't attract a DCMA takedown notice, as unlike those trees, unofficial "updates" to existing material can be seen to impede upon future works, even if that might be several years down the line.

That's why this might require the word of someone speaking with a little more authority. Are fan translations/updates works that Onyx Path/Exalted Authors encourage or discourage ? With the release of core a new core setting eminent, it's more prudent now than ever to ask these kinds of questions.

[Robert Vance]

I am neither a lawyer, nor speaking on behalf of Onyx Path. Just speaking from my own experience writing homebrew.

I've never known Onyx Path/White Wolf to go after something fan material that is not for profit, nor am I familiar with any other big publishing companies that do that. There is not a whole lot of benefit to gain for the time and money they'd have to put in. I can't say that they're encouraged, but I always felt very comfortable posting fan material.

[Meianno Yuurei]

Not to mention the loss of good will is commensurate for anything they could gain by putting the kibosh on fan creations; better that they simply produce their own high quality alchemical book and let the value of autochthon's depictions, creations the fans didn't think of, and hopefully equal or superior charms design earn them the bucks.

Most fans of autochthon, I think, would look at it as a stop gap rather than replacement, meaning still likely to buy the official book, if nothing else than to borrow from. So as long as it's not for profit, legal action is highly unlikely.

[hippokrene]

I am neither a lawyer, nor speaking on behalf of Onyx Path. Just speaking from my own experience writing homebrew.

I've never known Onyx Path/White Wolf to go after something fan material that is not for profit, nor am I familiar with any other big publishing companies that do that. There is not a whole lot of benefit to gain for the time and money they'd have to put in. I can't say that they're encouraged, but I always felt very comfortable posting fan material.

Let me hop in the way-back machine.

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That was 1994.

I recall WotC sending out to C&Ds for fan material as well, but that was some time ago. Now they're only interested in programs and such.

[semicasual]

That was 1994.

I recall WotC sending out to C&Ds for fan material as well, but that was some time ago. Now they're only interested in programs and such.

Wow, really? When I was into D&D in the early-mid 2000's, homebrew was everywhere. You couldn't escape from it. A lot of it was hosted on Wizards of the Coasts' own forums.

[Zelbinnean]

Wow, really? When I was into D&D in the early-mid 2000's, homebrew was everywhere. You couldn't escape from it. A lot of it was hosted on Wizards of the Coasts' own forums.

That was probably well before TSR/WotC realized you can't feasibly put a cease-and-desist on the whole internet.

[Kyeudo]

Wow, really? When I was into D&D in the early-mid 2000's, homebrew was everywhere. You couldn't escape from it. A lot of it was hosted on Wizards of the Coasts' own forums.

Their forums have a clause that specifies that they have joint ownership of anything posted on their forums. It gives them legal standing to do something should you ever try to profit from the idea beyond what is allowed by the SRD and shields them from lawsuits should any ideas they have be similar to something you wrote.

I do not think that there is a similar clause here, though I could be wrong.

[NewK]

Also, to be blunt, TSR had some...unique readings of IP law that were not and never have been backed up by how the law actually works. It also drastically harmed them with the fan base. It's always dangerous to make sweeping generalizations, but in an era when even Disney has accepted a vast amount of fan work without comment, I think it's safe to say that unless your fan work appears on DTRPG for the low price of 99.99.99 (Mike the TV). you're likely to be safe. (Another cavaet, obviously you're not using exact trade dress or artwork taken from Onyx).

[PlotVitalNPC]

Fair use goes a long way, especially when no money is involved. I know I plan on posting my 3e version of Masters of the Industrial Elements as soon as it is ready.

That's incredibly relieving to hear. I was terrified that it'd take forever and a day on account of Alchemicals themselves having bottom priority for adaptation to 3e.

[Robert Vance]

Let me hop in the way-back machine.

That was 1994.

I recall WotC sending out to C&Ds for fan material as well, but that was some time ago. Now they're only interested in programs and such.

In my defense, I was four years old then. :P

[NewK]

Also from the marketing point of view? Letting fan produced autocthonian mqterial ensures that you'll keep interest up for official autocthonian material. Given that the developers can't produce an autobot book any time soon, it's not merely not competing with official material, it's helping boost sales for the official material.

[kawaiiwolf]

I am neither a lawyer, nor speaking on behalf of Onyx Path. Just speaking from my own experience writing homebrew.

I've never known Onyx Path/White Wolf to go after something fan material that is not for profit, nor am I familiar with any other big publishing companies that do that. There is not a whole lot of benefit to gain for the time and money they'd have to put in. I can't say that they're encouraged, but I always felt very comfortable posting fan material.

Good words of encouragement from my favorite Exalted writer <3 That's good enough for me.

I wonder who we have to poke then to get an official Wiki up and started ? It'd be nice to have a common infrastructure set in place for common grounds posting, something like in the era of White Wolf. I realize their content is either lost to the ether or too far on the backburner to get a revival at this point, but somewhere to post community content in an organized fashion sounds ideal. I suppose it wouldn't even have to be hosted on theonyxpath.com if they didn't want to commit to that yet, but the community has to agree on one place otherwise ideas will get too fragmented.

[Kyeudo]

That's incredibly relieving to hear. I was terrified that it'd take forever and a day on account of Alchemicals themselves having bottom priority for adaptation to 3e.

The lack of Alchemicals has certainly had an impact on how I have to interact with the setting, but Stonebearers grew up enough during development that I think they can stand on their own. I like how its turning out so far. If all goes well, the only thing to do will be to knock out their mechanics when 3e comes out.