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  • #16
    Originally posted by CoSaR View Post
    Not sure about the use of them to establish colonies(pre-Empress Disappearance), largely because from the perspective of the Empress it would be a major weakening of her power centralization.
    I don't imagine that they would be called colonies. Thorns was, for all intents a purposes, a Realm colony, seeing how tied it was to the Realm's economic, political, and cultural machine. On paper, though, it was an independent nation who just so happened to maintain peaceful and friendly relations with the Realm for several centuries. The only official overseas territory the Realm has, that I know for certain, is Greyfalls (and Lookshy gave it to them at the end of the last war only because there wasn't really anything there but rocks). Even Cherak is left vague as to whether it is part of the Realm de jure, even if it is de facto.

    Just a thought. I'm not saying they did it, or that the Emperess would necessarily object (or agree) if they did, but it might have happened, and given the glimpses of the socio-politial-economic system the Empress set up, I wouldn't be suprised if it did happen a dozen or so times in the 750+ year history of the Realm.
    Last edited by Noodle; 01-15-2014, 12:30 AM.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Overshee View Post
      Yeah, I'm hoping that 3e will pay a bit more attention to the minor houses because I think they could add a really interesting dynamic to the political system of the Realm. Although, I do like the idea that the Great Houses have been officially 'crowned,' and that they are not only more powerful because they're richer and have better bloodlines, but because they are granted additional seats in the political system (they might already [do minor houses get seats in Senate?], but I don't feel like getting my 1e DB book out), including judiciary (though probably not the 1000 scales itself, officially at least) because they have been granted the privilege of being appointed a 'Greater House.'

      I think it would help tell DB stories as well... emphasizing the existence of minor houses will give PCs an refreshing cast of NPCs (in both senses of the word). Red has overburdened Cynis with responsibility for a large number of minor houses: PCs have to find them sources of income so they don't drain Cynis coffers, while making sure to help avoid any scandals which will hurt not only the minor house but also Cynis. Upon dissolution of Islesi, Tepet gets all their minor houses: the PCs have to ferret out spies.

      I'm just babbling, but I'm pretty pleased with this idea. Certainly something I've never put much thought into in previous editions.
      I doubt we'll get a primer on the minor houses like we got for the Great houses, but a primer on the minor houses as a whole (with a few sample minor houses) would be a SWEEEET addition to the Realm setting book. Drop the names of a couple of minor houses throughout the history, and you've made the Realm's history seem a whole lot more deep with minimal work.

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      • #18
        To be honest, I was kind of hoping for a thread about a post-Contagion historical setting where all of the new roads lead to the Blessed Isle and everyone is starving to death because the queen of the world set ruinous export quotas and nobody's quite sure if she's doing it on purpose or not.
        e:But this is also good!
        Last edited by ErichZahn; 01-15-2014, 01:03 AM.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Noodle View Post
          The only Cadet house I can recall being mentioned is House Ferem.
          Four cadet houses are named in the current draft of the 3e Threshold chapter.

          Originally posted by Noodle View Post
          Thorns was, for all intents a purposes, a Realm colony, seeing how tied it was to the Realm's economic, political, and cultural machine.
          Thorns would more accurately be described as a puppet state or satellite state.


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          • #20
            Originally posted by Noodle View Post
            I don't imagine that they would be called colonies. Thorns was, for all intents a purposes, a Realm colony, seeing how tied it was to the Realm's economic, political, and cultural machine. On paper, though, it was an independent nation who just so happened to maintain peaceful and friendly relations with the Realm for several centuries. The only official overseas territory the Realm has, that I know for certain, is Greyfalls (and Lookshy gave it to them at the end of the last war only because there wasn't really anything there but rocks). Even Cherak is left vague as to whether it is part of the Realm de jure, even if it is de facto.
            How does Thorns merit being a colony? It was a puppet state, most likely similar to how some other satraps had been used in the past.

            As for overseas territory, well, actually they have a lot, in the form of the Satraps.

            Originally posted by Noodle View Post
            Just a thought. I'm not saying they did it, or that the Emperess would necessarily object (or agree) if they did, but it might have happened, and given the glimpses of the socio-politial-economic system the Empress set up, I wouldn't be suprised if it did happen a dozen or so times in the 750+ year history of the Realm.
            Why? Given that it seems to be completely counter to her goal(by allowing others to establish a persistent power base not under her control). That's the entire reason given for the Satrap system: it allows the Great Houses to have the illusion of power, despite the control over the Satraps being entirely dependent on the Empress's whims.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Eric Minton View Post
              Four cadet houses are named in the current draft of the 3e Threshold chapter.
              Excellent. If that's what's in the core, I have really high hopes for the DB splat!

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              • #22
                Part of the Realm's not establishing "colonies" I think is that the satrapy system works fine for them. There's no real want to make the rest of the world an extension of the Blessed Isle. There's a want to make the rest of the world give the Blessed Isle stuff.

                There's no real gain in having hard-to-administor-and-protect provinces off the shore. They'll never get full rights and it is better to just keep enough swords in the area to force indeginous folks to send the stuff. Realm satraps and generals usually seem to be discouraged form actually seeing the place as home. Everything I gather is the Realm has no real motive to make more places the Realm. It has just motive to make things do what the Realm wants for the Relam's purposes, not some manifest destiny to expand the Realm's governing interest or state identity.

                There's also a bit of an economy on "outsiders" being enslavable, while folks on the Isle aren't. This dichotomy also discourages having lands that are potentially ethnically different from folks on the Isle seeable as gaining "citizenship". It instead encourages what looks to me to be the policty of puppet states that satrapies represent.

                Or to restate again, the things on the coast to exist ot be more parts of the Center. They exist to be things to feed it.

                And stuff.


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                • #23
                  Terra Nullius has always been more of a justification for imperialism than an actual reality of population distributions and territorial claims.


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                  • #24
                    As for colonies, I'd say that the Realm could be construed as logically lacking the social context and ideological drive that construes large scale resettlements of their own people as a way of controlling distant holdings, and it's not necessarily useful to portray them as doing such.

                    In-character, it might just not be a conclusion that occurs to anybody, anymore than it occurred to Ming China after it got reports from Zheng He's voyages.

                    I also think that it would be too on-the-nose to have things that more closely resemble straightforward recognisable colonisation, which would create dissonance when placed alongside the more integrated and syncretic satrapy system (since Realm societies combine some of the ideas of Persian satrapies with Chinese tributary system into a form that conveys a lot of the social weight of European colonisation).


                    I have approximate knowledge of many things.
                    Watch me play Dark Souls III (completed)
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                    • #25
                      I think that's it really. As you note, colonialism is just a justification for imperialism. But the Realm simply has gone for a different model of how it perceives and manages its imperial holdings, which partially to me includes that more Chinese MIddle Kingdom gaining tribute from barbarians than "civilizing the world" being at all on the actual agenda save in the sense of a patronizing presence.

                      And stuff.


                      And stuff.
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                      • #26
                        Part of this is that the Dynasty doesn't have a lot of pride in the culture of the Realm as such. Peasants are peasants, and the lower classes in the Blessed Isle society are not exactly held in esteem. Even patricians are sort of held in contempt. So there's no real point in moving Blessed Isle populations to far points of Creation because it's not like the locals in Harborhead are going to be genetically or culturally uplifted by spending much time around ignorant former rice-farmers who happened to be born on lands the Dynasty owns. The real point is to keep the flow of jade and slaves incoming, and they're eager (no they're not) to do that themselves.
                        Last edited by Stephen Lea Sheppard; 01-15-2014, 02:09 PM.

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                        • #27
                          That's a good point, I hope 3rd Edition is clearer on where languages are used. I mean is Low Realm just more prominent with Peasants and rural areas, and High Realm is tied to Dynast Culture and the Patricians that want to emulate them, and therefore more common in cities? What's the Overlap areas, and what are the areas that have no overlap and clearly one or the other. They were always ambiguous with this.

                          They have more sumptuous alternative to colonies, like tasty ranches or haciendas. If its low population settlements you could get away with just saying they are the direct employees/servants of a single household. I wonder how much they stretch this off the Isle.

                          And how illegal would it be for a Dynast to try to say create their own country/petty kingdom on the downlow by say they claim to be retiring and start up a kingdom on their own Island, and as long as they keep kosher, and don't raise a sizeable military I wonder what they can get away with. Clearly with the Civil war you could run a game with them getting away with way more then normal.


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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Stephen Lea Sheppard View Post
                            Part of this is that the Dynasty doesn't have a lot of pride in the culture of the Realm as such. Peasants are peasants, and the lower classes in the Blessed Isle society are not exactly held in esteem. Even patricians are sort of held in contempt. So there's no real point in moving Blessed Isle populations to far points of Creation because it's not like the locals in Harborhead are going to be genetically or culturally uplifted by spending much time around ignorant former rice-farmers who happened to be born on lands the Dynasty owns. The real point is to keep the flow of jade and slaves incoming, and they're eager (no they're not) to do that themselves.
                            Interesting thought. Thinking back on it, does the Realm even have a concept of citizenship? I.e. that a peasant dirt farmer from the Realm who (for whatever unlikely chain of events) finds themselves in Harbourhead is still a citizen of the Realm and subject to certain legal rights/responsibilities compared to a dirt farmer from Harbourhead?

                            From a legal standpoint I suppose that as far as Realm law in concerned everyone in Creation is already a subject of the Empress so it probably has different legal connotations to, for example, European monarchies.


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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Inqy View Post

                              Interesting thought. Thinking back on it, does the Realm even have a concept of citizenship? I.e. that a peasant dirt farmer from the Realm who (for whatever unlikely chain of events) finds themselves in Harbourhead is still a citizen of the Realm and subject to certain legal rights/responsibilities compared to a dirt farmer from Harbourhead?

                              From a legal standpoint I suppose that as far as Realm law in concerned everyone in Creation is already a subject of the Empress so it probably has different legal connotations to, for example, European monarchies.
                              Well yes they do have Citizens, they are a Caste based society after all. Disenfranchised are those in the Realm without legal rights and may be enslaved or Killed like non persons. But even Peasants are Citizens, until someone wants their land and boots them off making them disenfranchised.

                              Patricians have a greater illusion of rights and power. And Dynasts well, they are very clearly have rights. There are repercussions for harming even mortal children of Dragonblooded.
                              Oh and then the Immaculate Order... they have special considerations/places in society.

                              And Dragonblooded Dynastics are virtually institutions in themselves.


                              It is a time for great deeds!

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Inqy View Post

                                Interesting thought. Thinking back on it, does the Realm even have a concept of citizenship? I.e. that a peasant dirt farmer from the Realm who (for whatever unlikely chain of events) finds themselves in Harbourhead is still a citizen of the Realm and subject to certain legal rights/responsibilities compared to a dirt farmer from Harbourhead?
                                I'd say a Realm peasant would need to be carrying the identification papers that signify their permission to be outside of their home prefecture, which can both be used to a certain capacity to secure their passage back to the Blessed Isle and possibly escape certain forms of limitation on their movements. Also, since ethnic phenotypes of certain kinds are probably going to be a bit more localised depending on what part of the world you're in, local Realm officials in a place like Harborhead can probably distinguish people from the Realm and demand their identification.

                                It's likely that more than a few non-Realm people are harassed in this manner.

                                The Realm has at least an interest in keeping track of their taxable people.


                                I have approximate knowledge of many things.
                                Watch me play Dark Souls III (completed)
                                https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLDtbr08HW8RW4jOHN881YA3yRZBV4lpYw Watch me play Breath of the Wild (updated 12/03)

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