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  • Non-Canon Musings...

    I just had a thought: what if Old Realm doesn't have a blue/green division?

    Most of the audience probably just went "why is that important/interesting." OK, let's take a look at the implications.

    Ligier is the green sun; Ruvelia, on the other hand, was a blue star... reputedly. I say that both of them were the same. Exact. Color.

    Now, let's look at Total Annihilation, and that bit of fluff about it using Ligier's original name.

    Also, Shards points out that prior to Theion's transformation into Malfeas, Ligier was all colors, not just green.

    Does anyone see where I'm going with this?

    If not, spoilers!

    When the Yozi signed the Surrender Oaths, one of Malfeas' fetiches was sacrificed. It is recorded that it was Ruvelia. That record is false.

    Instead, Ligier, impetuous, arrogant Ligier stepped forward and took Ruvelia's place (given that he was Theion's secondary Fetich, and metaphorically a prince to Ruvelia's queen, he felt it was his place. When he was sacrificed, Theion half-died into Malfeas; this was especially harmful to Ruvelia's sanity, since in a very real way, she and Ligier were bound tightly metaphysically.) He did this while disguised as his sister, Ruvelia (since she was the one the Solars demanded).

    Now, (and I'm going off a bit of fanon here), Ligier was representative of Theion's outward glare, while Ruvelia was more... private. Secret.) for a brief while, Malfeas' skies were empty; Ruvelia had withdrawn in her grief. This worried the soul hierarchies of the other titans; was this a sign that Malfeas was going to die as well? Had Ruvelia's execution killed Ligier as well?

    Finally, Ruvelia ended her grief with a decision; if "Ruvelia" had been executed, well, let that be. The Blue Star of Ruvelia shone again in the heavens, warped by the death of her brother. She took his name, and disguised herself with his face; she allowed Ruvelia to die a second time. And so, Ligier shin Malfeas has been lighting the skies of Malfeas ever since.

    But what of Total Annihilation? Well, a few of the Solars in charge of that execution figured out Ligier's ruse, but ended up deciding that one Fetich was as good as another for their purposes. Still, the name cried out, that fuels the obliterating energies of that spell, is the voice of Twice-Dead Ruvelia; once a queen, once a victim, once a suicide.


    Tl;Dr
    Ligier is actually a Sweet Polly Oliver Ruvelia whose gone a little crazy due to the death of her brother. Yes, I am aware that Ligier usually doesn't wear a shirt.

  • #2
    I like this, I think it is interesting and makes it more that what is in the books is rumor instead of everything being written as fact

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    • #3
      I love the fact that all of this extrapolation is coming out of "what if Old Realm color names worked like in Japanese?"


      Currently Writing: Exalted Third Edition

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      • #4
        Originally posted by Robert Vance View Post
        I love the fact that all of this extrapolation is coming out of "what if Old Realm color names worked like in Japanese?"
        I thought the same thing! XD



        "The true object of all human life is play. Earth is a task garden; heaven is a playground." -G.K. Chesterton

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        • #5
          If memory serves, Breton doesn't have a distinction between green and blue either; the term that covers them both is glaz.

          Now, what's interesting is that the strict meaning of "glaz" is "the colour of the sea." As the sea can have various nuances of blue, green and grey, the term encompasses them.

          I'm not sure why I mention this, except that this thread brought to my attention how subtle difficulties in translation could have interesting in-setting impacts.

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          • #6
            I was listening to a radio news show recently that was explaining that, when you look at linguistics, it's apparently near universal that words for the color red are invented first and words for the color blue get invented last. The thinking is that, generally speaking, you don't really need a word for a color until you can create it and natural dyes in the red, yellow, and brown colors are much more common than ones for blue and so on.


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            • #7
              Originally posted by Omicron View Post
              If memory serves, Breton doesn't have a distinction between green and blue either; the term that covers them both is glaz.

              Now, what's interesting is that the strict meaning of "glaz" is "the colour of the sea." As the sea can have various nuances of blue, green and grey, the term encompasses them.

              I'm not sure why I mention this, except that this thread brought to my attention how subtle difficulties in translation could have interesting in-setting impacts.
              Language shapes perceptions.

              If I remember correctly there's actually a real life language where the people don't have words for Left or Right. Everything is in a directional oriented phrasing. So it wouldn't be "Touch your nose with your right hand" it would be "touch your nose with your north facing hand"


              It's one of those things that cause some people to fret about the future. As we globalize communication we move towards standards and more and more languages die out, and with them specific ways of looking at the world. Without fundamentally different ways of looking at things innovation slows down.


              Odd_Canuck is not a topical medication or food product and is not to be taken internally or seriously.

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              • #8
                [QUOTE=Odd_Canuck;n61224] Language shapes perceptions.j If I remember correctly there's actually a real life language where the people don't have words for Left or Right. Everything is in a directional oriented phrasing. So it wouldn't be "Touch your nose with your right hand" it would be "touch your nose with your north facing hand" [QUOTE] If I am not mistaken this is one or more Australian Aboriginal languages. The necessary awarness and nuance of language for direction tends to facilitate a very good sense of direction


                Pronounced "Monkey Pie"

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                • #9
                  The color blue is interesting in that the word for it never shows up in the Illiad/Oddysey (why is the sea "wine-dark?"), Rig Veda, Epic of Gilgamesh and iirc the Old Testament. There's a theory that many ancient just couldn't distinguish it. There are even some societies now that can't recognize the color blue. Assuming they weren't just trolling the researchers, they couldn't tell green from blue, and asked what color the sky and sea were, they replied "black" or "white.
                  http://www.radiolab.org/story/211213-sky-isnt-blue/

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                  • #10
                    ITT: People that read Cracked.com's new book. :P

                    Discussions on language-related perceptions aside, this idea intrigues me and I'd like to hear more of it!


                    Amy Veeres - Newbie Freelancer

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                    • #11
                      Also, another thing I noticed: in GoD, Adrían was female, and Lilike was male. In everything else I've seen, those two genders are flipped...

                      Yozi damn it, how many crossdressing/transgender primordials are there?

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                      • #12
                        I don't recall Adrían ever been male canonically.
                        I have however seen fanon from people who didn't realise that Adrian could be a girl's name.


                        Onyx Path Forums Moderator

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Lioness View Post
                          I don't recall Adrían ever been male canonically.
                          I have however seen fanon from people who didn't realise that Adrian could be a girl's name.
                          +1. The whole "Adrian was male, Adorjan is female" thing was not something that even existed as an idea--at least on any of the White Wolf forums--until many years after GoD's release, when IIRC Sach wrote up a bunch of things on the etymology of names and observed that Adrian and Adorjan were the masculine and feminine versions of the same name. That was the first mention I ever heard of it, anyway. There was some room for ambiguity, IIRC, but IMHO you had to looks sideways at the whole entry to see it.

                          Eventually, it crawled up to fanon status until an entry in Ink Monkeys indirectly clarified that Adrian had always been female, although I think it was also around that time that we learned Elloge was as well, having been born from the spiritual wreckage of He Who Bleeds The Unknown Word.

                          Originally posted by amechra View Post
                          Also, Shards points out that prior to Theion's transformation into Malfeas, Ligier was all colors, not just green.
                          Does it? His excellency specifically mentions Theion's white flames being too intense, and sending his Green Sun before him with its "kinder light". I'd always interpreted that as Ligier having always represented the restraint of the Primordial King: first as a sort of smug self-ascribed magnaminity, and eventually as the reminder that Malfeas was bound away, Given green's place in the dead-center of the ROYGBIV spectrum, it made sense at the time.
                          Last edited by Mockery; 01-30-2014, 01:41 PM.

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                          • #14
                            IRC, quite a few modern languages and a lot of ancient ones don't have division between blue and green, or so I'm told. That it is so in japanese is a hilarious easter egg. I am amazed it took this long to figure this out.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Odd_Canuck View Post
                              Language shapes perceptions.
                              I think it's more accurate to say that language aids in perpetuating certain perceptions. After all, the Japanese aren't incapable of distinguishing blue from green, though they use the same word for both (albeit only within certain domains; the word midori exists for a reason).

                              Hell, even languages like Pirahã, which supposedly lack words for colours other than "light" and "dark," are still fully capable of describing colours through comparison.

                              Originally posted by Monkipi View Post
                              If I am not mistaken this is one or more Australian Aboriginal languages.
                              You're probably thinking of Guugu Yimithirr, which is the most famous of the "no relative directions" languages.

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