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Sorcerous Workings: Where We Make Judgments

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  • Originally posted by TheCountAlucard View Post
    Sorcerous workings don't just get to mimic the powers of artifacts, though. Also those manacles were horseshit.

    There was a post in the ask the devs, where Vance said that, because of how broad workings are, it cant be helped if there is some overlap with other things. So it is possible for a working to emulate the effect of an artifact.
    How bad is the effects is another thing, and should be discussed with the ST.

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    • Originally posted by Hakkonen View Post
      Actually, the intent is a booby trap. I had an idea for a plot wherein a mortal sorcerer lures Exalts to his valley, uses this working to inhibit their powers, and captures them for sacrifice to the Yozis. His motivation is that he's been promised Infernal Exaltation if he can sacrifice a certain number of Exalts.

      I'd mess with mote regeneration in someway instead, yeah. I had a few arrows that were able to delay mote regeneration some until removed from the body. Good for hunting gods as well as Exalts.

      In general, however, it might be better to attack from other angles. Sleeping gas, for instance, or knock out fruits or the like.


      I did a lot of homebrew over here. PEACH.

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      • Originally posted by TheCountAlucard View Post
        Part of the problem is that you're seeing Charms as "powers," which is not the intended paradigm. The Solar athlete isn't using a modular superpower when he lifts an elephant overhead; rather, he is strong, and his Charms represent his learned ability to apply that amazing strength.
        I don't agree with that at all. A mortal with Strength ••••• cannot learn to replicate the feats of a Solar with Strength •••••, no matter how he trains. The Solar is channelling and shaping Essence - effectively modifying reality - in order to perform acts that are impossible for mortals.

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        • Originally posted by Hakkonen View Post
          I don't agree with that at all. A mortal with Strength ••••• cannot learn to replicate the feats of a Solar with Strength •••••, no matter how he trains. The Solar is channelling and shaping Essence - effectively modifying reality - in order to perform acts that are impossible for mortals.

          What Alucard means is, you cannot seperate a solar from his powers the way you can say...superman. It'd be like taking away heracles' strength.
          Superman's powers have an external source (the sun) and he can lose them to external events (blocked sun+Kyrpto-how-is-this-so-common-nite).
          Heracles is strong. He just is. We can model that strength with discrete charms, and with motes, but if you asked heracles how he did somehting, Increasing Strenth Exervcise as a phrase isn't gonna get referenced. He just exerted more effort in that task (motes here).
          a valley that makes Superman lose powers makes sense. There's an external that's being inhibited.
          a valley that reduced heracles to normal strength is trickier. A valley that generally made people less strong would do that...but that's not what "they can't use charms" means. Can't use charms means the super-strong are just...strong.
          It'd be like if Batman had all his intellect and stealth and gadgets...but not to the comic book extreme. Or if Oddesseyeus was just normal smart, with his extra special smart removed. Or Elijah was just convincing, lakcing the power his rhetoric normally had. The magic of solars builds on and is an intrinsic part of who they are. It's also why "no backsies on exaltations" is a rule of sorcery that can't be broken.
          I'd argue it's removing the genre of their abillities, which is why it's kinda a no-no (Personally? I'd allow a personal scale interference. Like the shackles or something that overcame their personal defenses. An entire valley doing it passively though? Seems a bit much).

          For the booby trap, however, somehting that sapped your strength (meaning you had charms, but their effectiveness was diminished bc A) your dice pool might be diminished, and b) your starting at a lower number)? Sounds good. Hell, just inflict tons of penalites with it, via painwracking poisons.


          I did a lot of homebrew over here. PEACH.

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          • Originally posted by Hakkonen View Post
            A mortal with Strength ••••• cannot learn to replicate the feats of a Solar with Strength •••••, no matter how he trains.
            What about when he trains so hard that he does replicate the Solar's results, and the Sun himself recognizes his devotion to excellence, and places a mark upon his brow?

            (I also dispute the notion that a Solar simply spending Essence is "modifying reality." It's flexing your muscles, not Wyld-Shaping Technique.)
            Last edited by TheCountAlucard; 11-03-2017, 05:59 AM.

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            • Originally posted by TheCountAlucard View Post
              What about when he trains so hard that he does replicate the Solar's results, and the Sun himself recognizes his devotion to excellence, and places a mark upon his brow?
              Then he's no longer a mortal, and my point stands. Please don't be disingenuous.

              (I also dispute the notion that a Solar simply spending Essence is "modifying reality." It's flexing your muscles, not Wyld-Shaping Technique.)
              That's exactly what spending Essence does, and Wyld-Shaping Technique is a great example. The Solar shapes Essence to congeal a new pocket of reality out of the infinite possibility of the Wyld. Increasing Strength Exercise shapes Essence to make the Solar stronger than she normally is: reality is changing, even if the only part of it that changes is the Solar herself.

              We see the same phenomenon in sorcery. What does a sorcerer gather in order to change reality? Sorcerous motes of Essence. Essence is what Creation is made of. Modifying the flow of Essence is, by definition, modifying reality.

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              • Originally posted by Hakkonen View Post
                That's exactly what spending Essence does, and Wyld-Shaping Technique is a great example. The Solar shapes Essence to congeal a new pocket of reality out of the infinite possibility of the Wyld. Increasing Strength Exercise shapes Essence to make the Solar stronger than she normally is: reality is changing, even if the only part of it that changes is the Solar herself.

                We see the same phenomenon in sorcery. What does a sorcerer gather in order to change reality? Sorcerous motes of Essence. Essence is what Creation is made of. Modifying the flow of Essence is, by definition, modifying reality.
                Putting aside my opinions on solars being mortal, it is worth noting that sorcerous motes are not normal motes. You can't cast obsidian butterflies with Solar motes this go around.


                I did a lot of homebrew over here. PEACH.

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                • Originally posted by Epee102 View Post

                  Putting aside my opinions on solars being mortal
                  The game itself uses "mortal" as shorthand for "non-Exalted humans," and I believe it is perfectly clear that I'm using it the same way. Again: please don't be disingenuous.

                  it is worth noting that sorcerous motes are not normal motes. You can't cast obsidian butterflies with Solar motes this go around.
                  Misleading. Solars may no longer draw on their own internal reserves of Essence for sorcery, but they're still shaping Essence.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Hakkonen View Post
                    The game itself uses "mortal" as shorthand for "non-Exalted humans," and I believe it is perfectly clear that I'm using it the same way. Again: please don't be disingenuous.
                    Didn't mean to be. It's a nitpick I have w/the book as well.

                    Originally posted by Hakkonen View Post


                    Misleading. Solars may no longer draw on their own internal reserves of Essence for sorcery, but they're still shaping Essence.
                    Alright then, straight to the point:
                    I disagree that Sorcerous Motes=Solar Motes, based on that factor that Sorcerous is external and does wildly different themes. However this is all mostly irrelevant to your question regarding a working. This is best for another thread.
                    THat being said, I'd say no. You can't stop people from using their charms. This discussion regarding whether or not Exalts are mortal or whether charms are powers is mostly irrelevant. Straight to the point: It's interfering with an exaltation. THe working closes to this is Solar Ambition 2 (Equivalent of making a demon a god).


                    I did a lot of homebrew over here. PEACH.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Hakkonen View Post
                      I don't agree with that at all. A mortal with Strength ••••• cannot learn to replicate the feats of a Solar with Strength •••••, no matter how he trains. The Solar is channelling and shaping Essence - effectively modifying reality - in order to perform acts that are impossible for mortals.
                      We can all argue about what is and isn't a 'power' but how about I simply refer you to the exalted core book? Read the intro to the charms chapter. Especially the bit about 'depicting charms'. It's on page 250 of the 3E core.

                      In short what you're saying is that the guys in wuxia movies are casting spells when they leap from the tops of trees and bound accross the water. Your argument implies that batman is a wizard because he's casting spells when he analyses a crime scene. Or the bride is using a magical power when she causes Bill's heart to explode in Kill Bill. None of this is true, and it's not true of the solar exalted either. The solars are not Shazam in other words.

                      Charms are not something that can be switched off. There is nothing that can cut off access to his powers because they're not some place else that he's getting access to. Charms are the solar and the solar is the charms. It's like you're asking how to stop someone from accessing their brain. It's a meaningless sentence. You want to stop someone from thinking? You kill them. You want to stop a Solar from using her charms? You gotta kill her first.

                      The external magical powers you're talking about? That's sorcery. You know how you stop sorcery? Countermagic.


                      Check out my homebrew exalt: The Fabulists - Chosen of the Raksha here

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                      • Hello all, I was wondering what circle and ambition would you think is appropriate to transform an NPC's Volcano Cutter into an arm for an NPC? One of my players just assisted one of my NPC's, saving his life but the npc was nearly killed and still lost his right arm, but has Volcano Cutter so one of the players wanted to transform it into a new arm, ala Wormtail from Harry Potter.

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                        • Originally posted by Citadel97501 View Post
                          Hello all, I was wondering what circle and ambition would you think is appropriate to transform an NPC's Volcano Cutter into an arm for an NPC? One of my players just assisted one of my NPC's, saving his life but the npc was nearly killed and still lost his right arm, but has Volcano Cutter so one of the players wanted to transform it into a new arm, ala Wormtail from Harry Potter.

                          ...Huh. Intreasting. Keeping Evocations and everything?
                          ...I'm stealing at least part of that idea. Anyway, I'd say Celestial, between ambition 2-3, depending on the nature of the arm (Can it use evocations? What level artifact weapon is it? Is it inert if motes aren't committed? Etc). I'd lean towards 3, since the power set of an artifact is comparable to a full charmset more than a one off.


                          I did a lot of homebrew over here. PEACH.

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                          • A question on finesse.

                            Congrats, you can now inflict mutations on your mortal warrior bodyguard.

                            You wish to make him the fightiest fighter, ever. So you give him stuff like enhanced healing, sleeplessness, and natural armour and bladeproof skin. And you make it all internal. Cause you don't want him to stand out too much.

                            So if you make it Finesse 1, how would it be like? His wounds glow as they knit together, showing his supernatural healing?

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                            • Originally posted by Accelerator View Post

                              You wish to make him the fightiest fighter, ever. So you give him stuff like enhanced healing, sleeplessness, and natural armour and bladeproof skin. And you make it all internal. Cause you don't want him to stand out too much.

                              So if you make it Finesse 1, how would it be like? His wounds glow as they knit together, showing his supernatural healing?
                              If the working was designed to make the abilities it granted non-obvious (which would raise the Ambition of the working, above the default for "add mutations to somebody"), then I'd treat them being non-obvious as part of the point, so low-finesse complications shouldn't subvert that. Glowing when they heal does that, I'd say, so I'd look for other things for low-finesse to do. Some suggestions:
                              • Using the mutations involves burning a lot of energy, so whenever they get used, the person has to eat a huge meal and take a long nap afterwards.
                              • The mutations aren't actually added to the character's body inherently. Instead, they're tied to an amulet or other piece of jewelry. If someone can get that item off them, the mutations would slowly fade from the servant, while the other person developed them.
                              • The life of your servant is now tied to you. If they get too far from you (say, over 20 yards), they start to weaken and lose the mutations, and will eventually die. They've now got to be around you all the time, even in intimate moments.
                              • The mutations draw from the sorcerer's life-force to power things, particularly the regeneration. For every, say, 4 health levels the bodyguard heals, the sorcerer suffers one.
                              • The mutations channel some kind of martial arts prowess. The servant has to assume an appropriate martial arts form to gain the benefit, and if they assume another form, the benefits end.

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                              • Let's say, using the mutations system and sorcerous workings, i get a bat and lizard hybrid, which is the size of a yeddim, with extra soak and armour, plus the ability to fly.

                                Now, the only thing left is the breathe attack. Is this terrestrial circle or celestial?

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