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Sorcerous Workings: Where We Make Judgments

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  • Aiden
    started a topic Sorcerous Workings: Where We Make Judgments

    Sorcerous Workings: Where We Make Judgments

    I figured we could use a thread for people to propose sorcerous working examples that aren't explicitly spelled out in the examples given to us in the corebook, and then have one another judge what Circle and Ambition we believe that working should be. So, I'll get us started with my own proposal!

    Say I wanted to give myself an eternal lifespan with a sorcerous working. What Circle do you believe would be required for that, and at what level of Ambition? Obviously there would be caveats to the lifespan due to the limitations of sorcery, but how do I get there in the first place? Or what if I merely wanted to use it to double my lifespan with a one-time working?

    Assume I'm not a Sidereal; we know it probably won't work there.
    Last edited by Aiden; 10-27-2015, 09:05 PM.

  • Jefepato
    replied
    Originally posted by Kelly Pedersen View Post
    Celestial 3: At Ambition 3 Celestial, individually-animated statues can be very potent - equivalent to 2nd-Circle demons - and they'll come with inherent loyalty to you to boot.
    This level would also allow you to animate a whole batch of Terrestrial 3-equivalent statues (that is, self-aware, with roughly mortal stats, no inherent loyalty) at once.
    As a defense system, the statues would be able to accept extremely complex commands and make their own decisions, effectively, though they wouldn't be self-aware, and wouldn't be capable of truly original or creative strategies, or going outside their assigned roles. You could also add supernatural abilities to them, like the archers being able to shoot lightning bolts or the swordsmen being capable of hitting incorporeal creatures.

    Solar 1: At this point, you can do a collective animation of what I described for the Celestial 1 level, creating a whole bunch of self-aware statues with either exceptional traits or inherent loyalty.
    As a defense system, it doesn't really get much stronger than Celestial 3, but the area they can cover gets larger - a city or similar sized region instead of just a single fortress.

    Solar 2: Here's where you can mass-produce self-aware, elite stats, inherent loyalty individuals, and throw in a supernatural power or two for each of them as well.
    As a collective defense, the statues should be capable of everything at Celestial 3, with the scope of Solar 1, and add additional potent supernatural abilities, like the ability to multiply when attacked, nigh-invulnerability, or similarly potent powers.



    If they're self-aware, I'd allow them to be trained, though if they're sufficiently good, they might not benefit from it very much.
    I think you're kinda lowballing the appropriate power level for mass-produced statues at the higher levels. Whipping up a bunch of untrained mortals with no loyalty to you who happen to have Unusual Hide just isn't all that impressive compared to other stuff you can do at that level.

    For Celestial 3, I'd probably allow a group of loyal statues on par with elite soldiers (with Unusual Hide 5 and Claws). I'm not sure how big a group you should get at that point, but honestly, it would need to be a fair-sized group to be remotely worth choosing when the alternative could throw down with a Second Circle demon.

    Originally posted by Accelerator View Post
    Wow. Charms that affect sorcerous workings? Are those kosher? I'm fairly sure that the book said there were issues with doing this.
    I don't recall the book saying anything like that.

    I wouldn't reduce the intervals that far, but I don't think there's any reason why it shouldn't be possible to perform workings faster than usual.

    Leave a comment:


  • Accelerator
    replied
    Frankly speaking, wasn't there a problem in 2e of, say, people continuously pumping out artifacts? Wouldn't doing something like this make sorcerous workings devalue? Don't get me wrong, I like making the setting magical as a whole. But something that would warp and alter sorcerous workings should be somewhere in Essence 4-5

    Leave a comment:


  • Kelly Pedersen
    replied
    Originally posted by armyofwhispers View Post
    I also don't like this effect because it basically adds in extra means for free,
    To address this, I would say that using the effect is optional, but if you do use it, you can't take extra time as a means.


    Originally posted by armyofwhispers
    and makes solar sorcerers able to slap down overlapping sorcerous workings in rapid fire. Do you really want a solar sorcerer to be able to lay down literally 168 sorcerous workings for every one a terrestrial can drop down
    This is also a good point. I think I'd limit the "two circles of mastery higher" effect to only Terrestrial 1 workings, not any higher than that. So a Solar-Circle sorcerer could drop 168 as many minor blessings as a Terrestrial-Circle sorcerer could, but anything higher than that would take a full day. I think the fact that each such low-level working will still cost 1 XP will be sufficient balance at that point.

    Leave a comment:


  • Accelerator
    replied
    Wow. Charms that affect sorcerous workings? Are those kosher? I'm fairly sure that the book said there were issues with doing this.

    Leave a comment:


  • armyofwhispers
    replied
    Originally posted by Kelly Pedersen View Post
    For time reduction, I'd be okay with a custom Occult charm, along these lines:

    Flashing Wonder Technique
    Cost: —; Mins: Occult 5, Essence 1
    Type: Permanent
    Keywords: None
    Duration: Permanent
    Prerequisite Charms: Terrestrial Circle Sorcery
    The Copper Spider's mastery over the esoteric secrets of sorcery is so great that she can transform the world in a fraction of the time. This charm improves the speed at which she can perform sorcerous workings. Workings of a level she has mastered (meaning those she has the appropriate Sorcery charm for) have an interval of only three days, while those one circle below that have an interval of only a single day, while two circles lower have an interval of a single hour. Workings of a circle higher than the Solar has mastered, meanwhile, have an interval of one month if they are one circle higher than her mastery, and 6 months if they are two circles higher.
    I don't much like this, tbh. Mainly because of how weirdly it interacts with taking extra time and its balance concerns.

    normal: 1 week interval
    can be extended to:
    one month
    three months
    one year

    if one circle above: three months
    extends to
    one year
    three years
    five years

    if two circles above: one year
    extends to
    three years
    five years
    ten years

    So logically if you're simply dropping everything by one step with your charm, this would mean that you'd go from one year to three months for going two circles above as the base interval.

    I also don't like this effect because it basically adds in extra means for free, and makes solar sorcerers able to slap down overlapping sorcerous workings in rapid fire. Do you really want a solar sorcerer to be able to lay down literally 168 sorcerous workings for every one a terrestrial can drop down (the first one could be not needing sleep for a week!)? Assuming similar difficulties and dice pools, which means that the solar could probably drop even more comparatively. All of this for a single purchase at Essence 1? I mean, Solar sorcerers are good but I don't think they should be this good.

    Leave a comment:


  • Beast of Bitter Oblivion
    replied
    Originally posted by Kelly Pedersen View Post

    It's doable, but will definitely be more difficult. The basic difficulty of the rolls will be (2 + Finesse), instead of just (Finesse), and the time required for each roll will be 3 months, rather than just a week. If you have (Intelligence + Occult) at 10, meaning you can throw 20 dice at each roll, on average you'll get 7 successes for each interval, if you go for Finesse 1. So a Solar 1 working will require, on average, 6 intervals (it requires 40 successes), while a Solar 2 one will require 8 intervals. So, either 18 months or 24 months.



    The only canonical way of reducing the difficulty is by accepting a lower Finesse, meaning that your ST will get to determine more of the details of what the working involves exactly. Note that this shouldn't ever make the working useless - if you ask for the working to be "a bunch of animated statues with self-awareness, who are loyal to me", that's what you'll get. But the ST will put in complications or weirdness on that.

    For time reduction, I'd be okay with a custom Occult charm, along these lines:

    Flashing Wonder Technique
    Cost: —; Mins: Occult 5, Essence 1
    Type: Permanent
    Keywords: None
    Duration: Permanent
    Prerequisite Charms: Terrestrial Circle Sorcery
    The Copper Spider's mastery over the esoteric secrets of sorcery is so great that she can transform the world in a fraction of the time. This charm improves the speed at which she can perform sorcerous workings. Workings of a level she has mastered (meaning those she has the appropriate Sorcery charm for) have an interval of only three days, while those one circle below that have an interval of only a single day, while two circles lower have an interval of a single hour. Workings of a circle higher than the Solar has mastered, meanwhile, have an interval of one month if they are one circle higher than her mastery, and 6 months if they are two circles higher.
    Quality stuff there I’ll speak to the ST about it although it sounds like the Dawn caste doesn’t like the idea so I might just clone him 500 times instead see how he likes that.

    Leave a comment:


  • Kelly Pedersen
    replied
    Originally posted by Beast of Bitter Oblivion View Post
    How difficult would it be to do for celestial level sorceror ?
    It's doable, but will definitely be more difficult. The basic difficulty of the rolls will be (2 + Finesse), instead of just (Finesse), and the time required for each roll will be 3 months, rather than just a week. If you have (Intelligence + Occult) at 10, meaning you can throw 20 dice at each roll, on average you'll get 7 successes for each interval, if you go for Finesse 1. So a Solar 1 working will require, on average, 6 intervals (it requires 40 successes), while a Solar 2 one will require 8 intervals. So, either 18 months or 24 months.

    Originally posted by Beast of Bitter Oblivion
    And is there any way of lowering the difficulty ? My main issue isn’t the roll difficulty but time involved.
    The only canonical way of reducing the difficulty is by accepting a lower Finesse, meaning that your ST will get to determine more of the details of what the working involves exactly. Note that this shouldn't ever make the working useless - if you ask for the working to be "a bunch of animated statues with self-awareness, who are loyal to me", that's what you'll get. But the ST will put in complications or weirdness on that.

    For time reduction, I'd be okay with a custom Occult charm, along these lines:

    Flashing Wonder Technique
    Cost: —; Mins: Occult 5, Essence 1
    Type: Permanent
    Keywords: None
    Duration: Permanent
    Prerequisite Charms: Terrestrial Circle Sorcery
    The Copper Spider's mastery over the esoteric secrets of sorcery is so great that she can transform the world in a fraction of the time. This charm improves the speed at which she can perform sorcerous workings. Workings of a level she has mastered (meaning those she has the appropriate Sorcery charm for) have an interval of only three days, while those one circle below that have an interval of only a single day, while two circles lower have an interval of a single hour. Workings of a circle higher than the Solar has mastered, meanwhile, have an interval of one month if they are one circle higher than her mastery, and 6 months if they are two circles higher.

    Leave a comment:


  • Beast of Bitter Oblivion
    replied
    Originally posted by Kelly Pedersen View Post

    ​Like Epitome says, there's really too many variables here to pin this down precisely. I'll go over some of the options at various Ambition levels.

    Terrestrial 3: The lowest level you can expect. At the Terrestrial level, you could individually animate and grant sapience to the statues. Their stats won't be incredibly high, at best equivalent to ordinary mortals, with a few supernatural merits like Claws and Unusual Hide to represent being made of stone. I wouldn't give them either notable combat skills or inherent loyalty to you at this level - both of those could be taught/instilled in them, but that would be separate from the working.

    Celestial 1: This would be as per Terrestrial 3 (i.e., individually-created individuals), but I'd allow you to do one of the following additionally per working: either give them superior traits (roughly equivalent to the Battle-Ready Troops QC, Exalted Core pp. 496-497), or give them an automatic intimacy of loyalty to you.
    At this level, you could also animate all the statues at once, but only as a non-sapient defense. They'd be limited in where they could go, remaining more or less in the area of the fortress, and being incapable of acting on very complex orders. Also, you'd have to command them in groups, not as individuals. I'd probably say that 20% of the statues at once would be the smallest group you could effectively command. So if you had 100 statues, you could tell 20 of them to "attack that target", and they'd do it, but you couldn't put on any conditionals or subsequent commands - you or a designated authority would have to tell them to do each thing in order.

    Celestial 2: At this level, I'd let you animate individual statues with both good stats and an intimacy of loyal to you as a single working.
    Once a statue was individually animated, Celestial 2 would also let you give it more potent supernatural powers, as a separate working.
    I'd also let you create a collective defensive system, as per Celestial 1, that had more complex and useful behavior. It still wouldn't be self-aware, but you could give individual statues orders, rather than whole groups, and those orders could be a bit more complex (instead of just "shoot at that target", it could include things like "wait until the target gets within 10 yards of you, then open fire, and once they stop moving, switch to the next nearest target").

    Celestial 3: At Ambition 3 Celestial, individually-animated statues can be very potent - equivalent to 2nd-Circle demons - and they'll come with inherent loyalty to you to boot.
    This level would also allow you to animate a whole batch of Terrestrial 3-equivalent statues (that is, self-aware, with roughly mortal stats, no inherent loyalty) at once.
    As a defense system, the statues would be able to accept extremely complex commands and make their own decisions, effectively, though they wouldn't be self-aware, and wouldn't be capable of truly original or creative strategies, or going outside their assigned roles. You could also add supernatural abilities to them, like the archers being able to shoot lightning bolts or the swordsmen being capable of hitting incorporeal creatures.

    Solar 1: At this point, you can do a collective animation of what I described for the Celestial 1 level, creating a whole bunch of self-aware statues with either exceptional traits or inherent loyalty.
    As a defense system, it doesn't really get much stronger than Celestial 3, but the area they can cover gets larger - a city or similar sized region instead of just a single fortress.

    Solar 2: Here's where you can mass-produce self-aware, elite stats, inherent loyalty individuals, and throw in a supernatural power or two for each of them as well.
    As a collective defense, the statues should be capable of everything at Celestial 3, with the scope of Solar 1, and add additional potent supernatural abilities, like the ability to multiply when attacked, nigh-invulnerability, or similarly potent powers.



    If they're self-aware, I'd allow them to be trained, though if they're sufficiently good, they might not benefit from it very much.
    Hm thanks that’s very helpful, I want to animate a whole bunch of them at once and maybe have them act as a few battle groups it kinda sounds like what I’m looking for is solar 1 or 2. And I would want either our dawn command them when we are home or my 2nd circle equivalent when we are away. How difficult would it be to do for celestial level sorceror ? And is there any way of lowering the difficulty ? My main issue isn’t the roll difficulty but time involved.
    Last edited by Beast of Bitter Oblivion; 08-27-2019, 12:36 PM.

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  • Kelly Pedersen
    replied
    Originally posted by Beast of Bitter Oblivion View Post
    What sort of difficulty working would it be to have the stone statues come alive to defend your castle from invaders say like 500 assorted archers warriors and monsters ?
    ​Like Epitome says, there's really too many variables here to pin this down precisely. I'll go over some of the options at various Ambition levels.

    Terrestrial 3: The lowest level you can expect. At the Terrestrial level, you could individually animate and grant sapience to the statues. Their stats won't be incredibly high, at best equivalent to ordinary mortals, with a few supernatural merits like Claws and Unusual Hide to represent being made of stone. I wouldn't give them either notable combat skills or inherent loyalty to you at this level - both of those could be taught/instilled in them, but that would be separate from the working.

    Celestial 1: This would be as per Terrestrial 3 (i.e., individually-created individuals), but I'd allow you to do one of the following additionally per working: either give them superior traits (roughly equivalent to the Battle-Ready Troops QC, Exalted Core pp. 496-497), or give them an automatic intimacy of loyalty to you.
    At this level, you could also animate all the statues at once, but only as a non-sapient defense. They'd be limited in where they could go, remaining more or less in the area of the fortress, and being incapable of acting on very complex orders. Also, you'd have to command them in groups, not as individuals. I'd probably say that 20% of the statues at once would be the smallest group you could effectively command. So if you had 100 statues, you could tell 20 of them to "attack that target", and they'd do it, but you couldn't put on any conditionals or subsequent commands - you or a designated authority would have to tell them to do each thing in order.

    Celestial 2: At this level, I'd let you animate individual statues with both good stats and an intimacy of loyal to you as a single working.
    Once a statue was individually animated, Celestial 2 would also let you give it more potent supernatural powers, as a separate working.
    I'd also let you create a collective defensive system, as per Celestial 1, that had more complex and useful behavior. It still wouldn't be self-aware, but you could give individual statues orders, rather than whole groups, and those orders could be a bit more complex (instead of just "shoot at that target", it could include things like "wait until the target gets within 10 yards of you, then open fire, and once they stop moving, switch to the next nearest target").

    Celestial 3: At Ambition 3 Celestial, individually-animated statues can be very potent - equivalent to 2nd-Circle demons - and they'll come with inherent loyalty to you to boot.
    This level would also allow you to animate a whole batch of Terrestrial 3-equivalent statues (that is, self-aware, with roughly mortal stats, no inherent loyalty) at once.
    As a defense system, the statues would be able to accept extremely complex commands and make their own decisions, effectively, though they wouldn't be self-aware, and wouldn't be capable of truly original or creative strategies, or going outside their assigned roles. You could also add supernatural abilities to them, like the archers being able to shoot lightning bolts or the swordsmen being capable of hitting incorporeal creatures.

    Solar 1: At this point, you can do a collective animation of what I described for the Celestial 1 level, creating a whole bunch of self-aware statues with either exceptional traits or inherent loyalty.
    As a defense system, it doesn't really get much stronger than Celestial 3, but the area they can cover gets larger - a city or similar sized region instead of just a single fortress.

    Solar 2: Here's where you can mass-produce self-aware, elite stats, inherent loyalty individuals, and throw in a supernatural power or two for each of them as well.
    As a collective defense, the statues should be capable of everything at Celestial 3, with the scope of Solar 1, and add additional potent supernatural abilities, like the ability to multiply when attacked, nigh-invulnerability, or similarly potent powers.

    Originally posted by Beast of Bitter Oblivion
    I don’t suppose there is any way for th circles dawn to train statues is there ?
    If they're self-aware, I'd allow them to be trained, though if they're sufficiently good, they might not benefit from it very much.

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  • Epitome
    replied
    There's a lot of unknown variables for that working, I'd say it could be anywhere between celestial 2 and solar 2 depending on how strong the statues are as combatants and what will be the process to activate/deactivate them and to order them around.

    I'd say the statues can be trained so long as you shape them to be capable of learning OR your Dawn knows the Lore Charm First Knowledge's Grace.

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  • Accelerator
    replied
    Celestial 2 or 3. Training? Hmm... I would allow it.

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  • Beast of Bitter Oblivion
    replied
    What sort of difficulty working would it be to have the stone statues come alive to defend your castle from invaders say like 500 assorted archers warriors and monsters ? I’m not very clear on war rules so not sure how they would work. I could make a celestial working god/ 2nd circle equivalent who could lead them but other than that I’m kinda fishing. My twilight enjoys sculpting his circle in their castle so I was wondering if he could turn a hobby to something more productive.
    I don’t suppose there is any way for th circles dawn to train statues is there ?
    Last edited by Beast of Bitter Oblivion; 08-26-2019, 03:36 PM.

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  • Epitome
    replied
    Yup have to agree with Solar 3, that spell rewrites the fundamental laws of Creation as a whole, basically creating a new type of Occult power on Creation which didn't exist before. Giving non-sorcerers the power to cross realms of existence from anywhere in Creation also points to high Ambition.

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  • TheCountAlucard
    replied
    Considering that it exists across all of Creation, that sounds like Solar 3.

    Leave a comment:

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