Originally posted by Lanaya
Originally posted by hippokrene
I don't think that really matters, to the statement of "lying is removed from the things that can challenge you", because I don't think you need to use it in response to every statement for it to be the kind of thing that still basically invalidates the lies that matter.
Anytime you hear a statement that is trying to convince you of something, or get you to do a thing, or change your perception of others and the world, I do not think it's difficult for a Solar to have a general policy of confirming any of them through the Charm.
It's like, look at one of the examples in the social system, about the person trying to convince the Solar that his Lunar Mate is untrustworthy; let's say the liar comes back with some reasonable evidence and some arguments that reframe things the Lunar actually did in a manner that imply treachery. It could all be convincing in a manner that at least leaves the Solar uncertain of who can be trusted...
Unless he has this Charm, in which case all of those efforts on the part of the liar are useless, because no amount of contrived evidence or framed situations can get past the infallibility of the Charm.
Or say somebody is trying to draw your attention to themselves rather than one of their other operations, and so they tell you that they're the one who killed your father in order to draw your anger... except you know that they didn't, and so direct your venageance elsewhere.
An allied warlord with not intent to aid you pledges a time and place when an army will show up. A Guild factor tries to protect himself by bluffing that there's a trap set to kill many innocent people if he should be killed.
I will fully admit that this is not yet something I've tried out in play, so maybe the practicality of it is different there, and maybe the degree to which it is obvious what statements really absolutely need to have their truth verified would be more ambiguous in the moment than it is when thinking about it from a distance.
But still, it looks so... absolute, it feels to me like something that can remove a lot of ambiguity from stories and social interactions.
That being said, these points do make me feel as though I might be very wrong about something, which I really would welcome. I've at least been put in a mindset that is forming scenarios in which things would be more ambiguous to balance it out (such as recognising a lie in a scenario you can't exactly call out, or being faced with somebody who keeps the most overt things true and lets the misdirection fall into statements a Solar might be less likely to Judge), so that's something.
And I suppose that at least some forms of manipulation are going to be things that, if one is playing the mindset of the character honestly, they're not really going to stop and think that it may be untrue.
I wonder... the Charm can see through half truths, but what about equivcations... no, that probably still falls within the spirit of what it means by half truths, so the investigator would probably still get the sense that the ambiguous word is being used in a misleading way.
What about... statements that intend to lead the Solar to a conclusion that the speaker knows to be false? Such as, you can't say Desdemona is cheating on Othello when you know that she isn't, but if you point out circumstantial evidence that may lead to that conclusion. Is it a lie to say that Cassio being in possession of her handkerchief is suspicious? Is it a lie to assert that something could have a certain meaning, which it could, even if you personally know that it doesn't?
Hmm, in this particular example, we're probably back in the arena of "impractically judging every statement that you hear"; if Othello already has reason enough to trust me that we're discussing the implications of missing handkerchiefs, he's probably not going to second guess every opinion I offer, not unless he thinks I have an agenda. Besides, even if he did, lying about my own opinion that a misplaced handkerchief is suspicious doesn't exactly make it not suspicious. At the very least, it might lead Othello to ask me why I'm not being honest, but his own suspicions are still being aroused and fed.
And assuming that a climax in which Desdemona continually asserts that she's been faithful and Othello has the clarity to listen for the honesty of it or really acknowledge it even if he does is probably back in the area of portraying characters sincerely.
That all at least seems like a collection of scenarios in which things are maintained organically rather than one character having to severely contrive themselves through statements intended to get past a Solar's sense for the truth.
Although I wonder... is convincing somebody who is not a Solar, but is close to them, that Desdemona is unfaithful, and then having that person be the mouthpiece of all the manipulative stuff, would that be too far in the direction of contrivance?
Still not sure there's any way for Rankar VII to effectively bluff that he's got all of Gem ready to blow should something happen to him, but... maybe that's the price to pay. Maybe, in the grand scheme of things, being able to effectiely shut down that particular avenue of defence for him matters more than rounding out his options (it's not as if he can't still defend himself with things like elite, firewand wielding bodyguards or guardian statues or magic rings or, hell, actually making pacts with deep elementals to reactivate the volcano).
And I suppose, thinking of an example like, say, Jet from Avatar... even assuming a character who is disinclined to trust anybody that they encounter, I suppose that's a scenario in which the lies are subtle enough that a person wouldn't strictly know which ones are worth Judging.
I'm not entirely convinced, but I'll at least give it more of a chance.
Originally posted by hippokrene
I mean, certainly, you can't really create tension for such a Solar in a And Then There Were None kind of scenario; after the first body drops, just listen out for everybody inevitably declaring their innocence, and you'll have your culprit. It's like if in The Thing, they figured out that thing with testing the blood at the very start.
But I'll admit, that's one that's a fair bit more based on personal taste, and maybe not every situation of that type is really a suitable narrative for Solar anyway. Not unless it actually does incorporate more elements of The Thing, such as the culprit being a shapeshifter with some deception magic.
Comment