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  • Sanctaphrax
    started a topic Why so many dice tricks?

    Why so many dice tricks?

    E3 is absolutely packed with different ways to make your roll better. Some of them seem to serve useful purposes. But others just seem like weird ways to get around the Charm-dice cap.

    Does anyone know why the game is designed this way?

    Maybe I'm just not seeing this from the right angle, but I'm not sure why you'd let someone reroll 3 dice that failed instead of just giving them 3 extra dice on the roll. It seems like a more complicated way to do the exact same thing.

  • Ferryman
    replied
    Originally posted by sotmh View Post
    Some of the dice tricks are fine; double 7s, 8s, 9s are no big deal. But when I see stuff like "Reroll 6s until 6s fail to appear" I think this charm is the answer to the question "My players aren't spending enough time administering the system instead of interacting with the world, how can I change that?".
    Honestly I don't even mind those. Rerolling and doubling and exploding 10s and whatnot are rad, and it feels good to use them. You can tell not just that your Charms make a difference, you can see how each Charm in the combination interacts with the others, so they all seem cool,and I can imagine the Solar character's essence surging and pushing and erupting into moments of unexpected magnificence. The ones that require you to ask how many 1s and 2s the other guy rolled are more irritating, but even those are tolerable once the people around the table know to be looking for 1s and 2s and it doesn't seem so obnoxious. I was skeptical, but I am totally on board with the shenanigans now.

    No, the ones that made my players and I shake our heads and mouth "What the fuck?" were things like Rising Sun Slash. A 7-8-9-10 straight? Really? And only under certain circumstances? And such an unexciting result, too (like, does the other guy get lifted off his feet in a crazy melee uppercut? No? Just a success and a few more dice?). And now I find myself not just counting up successes but pausing the action while I arrange my dice to look for a straight that might have happened, because I can't actually predict it, and maybe it didn't happen at all, and every time it doesn't I am disappointed and everyone else is just like "there there, maybe next time bro" because I have to make a conscious effort to look for this thing which isn't otherwise readily apparent.

    And you know what? Even that would be okay if it was it's own little optional branch, because then a player could decide whether he wants that experience or not. But...no, if I want to get Hungry Tiger Technique (and I totally do) then I have to buy this thing. Ugh. Dice tricks are cool and fine as long as they are not intrusive, but there are a couple that just seem too loopy to live.

    Leave a comment:


  • Holden
    replied
    Originally posted by sotmh View Post
    Some of the dice tricks are fine; double 7s, 8s, 9s are no big deal. But when I see stuff like "Reroll 6s until 6s fail to appear" I think this charm is the answer to the question "My players aren't spending enough time administering the system instead of interacting with the world, how can I change that?". Because having to make sure I count specific numbers on my dice and my opponents dice and then rerolling them an indeterminate amount of times such that a single roll of 10-20 dice which normally would take 2-3 seconds to manage now takes 15-20 seconds to manage isn't my idea of an improvement to an already slow resolution mechanic.

    It produces a rather different experience when the outcome of all that rolling is meaningful and important, rather than a dreary task that is probably just going to bounce off of Adamant Skin Technique in the end anyway.

    Leave a comment:


  • Skeptic Tank
    replied
    Originally posted by sotmh View Post
    Some of the dice tricks are fine; double 7s, 8s, 9s are no big deal. But when I see stuff like "Reroll 6s until 6s fail to appear" I think this charm is the answer to the question "My players aren't spending enough time administering the system instead of interacting with the world, how can I change that?". Because having to make sure I count specific numbers on my dice and my opponents dice and then rerolling them an indeterminate amount of times such that a single roll of 10-20 dice which normally would take 2-3 seconds to manage now takes 15-20 seconds to manage isn't my idea of an improvement to an already slow resolution mechanic.

    Have you tried using it yet? It might not be for everybody, but my group's experience so far has been that the extra 5-10 seconds spent are a fun 5-10 seconds as they watch victory snatched from defeat, or what their charm push their success to critical heights with an unexpected surplus.

    Leave a comment:


  • sotmh
    replied
    Some of the dice tricks are fine; double 7s, 8s, 9s are no big deal. But when I see stuff like "Reroll 6s until 6s fail to appear" I think this charm is the answer to the question "My players aren't spending enough time administering the system instead of interacting with the world, how can I change that?". Because having to make sure I count specific numbers on my dice and my opponents dice and then rerolling them an indeterminate amount of times such that a single roll of 10-20 dice which normally would take 2-3 seconds to manage now takes 15-20 seconds to manage isn't my idea of an improvement to an already slow resolution mechanic.

    Leave a comment:


  • TalosX
    replied
    Originally posted by Joker View Post
    I definitely don't think you did anything wrong, sticking to your design goals is exactly what you should be doing.
    But being one of those that end up "getting shed" feels miserable anyway. If there is even a microscopic chance that there is a way of doing charms that doesn't conflict with your vision but makes it playable for me I would feel even more terrible if I didn't at least try to find it. 98% of what I have seen of E3 looks really good and I'd really like to be able to play it.
    I might have taken what you're saying the wrong way, but it seems to me that you're not really asking as much for a removal of dice-tricks. Rather you want them to be less "fluff wordy"?
    Meaning you don't want a charm to say: "The Solars ride the supernal winds of excellence, allowing it to carry them higher then those around them. This charm provides allows all 9s to be counted as double, similar to double 10s."
    You'd rather the charm said something like: "This charm provides allows all 9s to be counted as double, similar to double 10s."
    Is this what you're asking for?

    Leave a comment:


  • TheCountAlucard
    replied
    Originally posted by Holden View Post
    It won't click for everyone. It'd be great if it did, but taste being what it is, it won't.

    I would definitely recommend giving it a whirl before throwing in the towel, though. I have seen quite a few 'this looks awful' to 'this is AWESOME' turn-arounds, once people got some actual play in.
    My minmaxing player has made such a transformation, so you know.

    Leave a comment:


  • Holden
    replied
    It won't click for everyone. It'd be great if it did, but taste being what it is, it won't.

    I would definitely recommend giving it a whirl before throwing in the towel, though. I have seen quite a few 'this looks awful' to 'this is AWESOME' turn-arounds, once people got some actual play in.

    Leave a comment:


  • Segev
    replied
    Originally posted by Joker View Post

    I definitely don't think you did anything wrong, sticking to your design goals is exactly what you should be doing.
    But being one of those that end up "getting shed" feels miserable anyway. If there is even a microscopic chance that there is a way of doing charms that doesn't conflict with your vision but makes it playable for me I would feel even more terrible if I didn't at least try to find it. 98% of what I have seen of E3 looks really good and I'd really like to be able to play it.
    I haven't had a chance to try 3E out. However, if I read your earlier post right, your big problem is that the dicetrick charms bore you and your group in terms of reading them, and are a lot of clutter that makes it hard to find the "fun" Charms. Is that accurate?

    If it is, I would suggest that you try playing a session or few without having chosen Charms, and just have the section open. See what your PCs do, and where you wish you had some better dice mechanics or wish you could do something you don't think you can. Then, look at the Charms when you have some time to see if they can help with any of that.

    If somebody thinks of something on the fly, let him take that Charm right away; he'll have fewer Charms to pick later. Rejigger prerequisites and minima as needed after the session.

    It might help focus where you and your players are looking, and give a bit of a feel for what really is clunky vs. what actually "clicks," as Holden has suggested it will.

    Leave a comment:


  • Joker
    replied
    Originally posted by Holden View Post

    I'm seeing a tide of people who are super-happy with how 3e plays and are aggressively recruiting people to play.

    We made a new edition that is very, very different than what came before, which set particular design goals and met them. We knew we'd be shedding potential customers from the moment we started making decisions like "runs on FATE" or "does not run on FATE" or "is a super-light" or "is super-heavy.
    I definitely don't think you did anything wrong, sticking to your design goals is exactly what you should be doing.
    But being one of those that end up "getting shed" feels miserable anyway. If there is even a microscopic chance that there is a way of doing charms that doesn't conflict with your vision but makes it playable for me I would feel even more terrible if I didn't at least try to find it. 98% of what I have seen of E3 looks really good and I'd really like to be able to play it.

    Leave a comment:


  • Tiresias
    replied
    Power Crafting grabs Probability Theory and Chaos Theory and smashes their heads together until their skulls explode into confetti of dice successes. And then the confetti explodes into more dice successes.

    Leave a comment:


  • BrilliantRain
    replied
    My only issues with the dice tricks are that I think the reroll effects could use a note or two of explanation and that I have no idea what the statistical model of a Solar Crafter looks like, once you start climbing the Power tree.

    Leave a comment:


  • Totentanz
    replied
    Originally posted by Holden View Post

    I'm seeing a tide of people who are super-happy with how 3e plays and are aggressively recruiting people to play.

    We made a new edition that is very, very different than what came before, which set particular design goals and met them. We knew we'd be shedding potential customers from the moment we started making decisions like "runs on FATE" or "does not run on FATE" or "is a super-light" or "is super-heavy." It has enough range to play for 10 years out of just the corebook. It hangs together and works far better than anything else of comparable complexity and scope that I've ever seen. It cannot be all things to all people and still be any good. I am fine with this.

    Past that, I think the fact that once you hit the table, a lot of the apparent on-paper complexity melts away serves it well. One thing we've seen over and over and over and over again throughout the playtest feedback and the backer release was people going "I was pretty iffy about how this was going to work, but then we played it and everything clicked and it was a blast."

    Thanks. I've mostly been running the social influence system for my noobs (as in, noobs to RPGs as a whole). Combat is this Friday.

    Leave a comment:


  • DrLoveMonkey
    replied
    Originally posted by Elkovash View Post
    My Take on the situation is thus; If Keen-Worldly Cobalt, the Solar Investigator, knows unfailingly that Dastardly Devlin is lying to The Sword Prince Gensuji in an attempt to force him to go to war in the Hundred Kingdoms, it does not follow that Cobalt has an easier time convincing said Sword Prince to do the opposite. It's a starting point, but there are a lot more people Creation than the Player characters that manipulators can target (with a significantly higher chance of success) that can have as dramatic and terrible consequences. It doesn't negate the cool charm by having everyone important in creation always using double-speak, and acts rather as a tool to open more stories. Especially if Dastardly Devlin has gone toe-to-toe with Cobalt in the past and has picked his moment of victory in the full knowledge that Cobalt knows, but is in no better position to stop it.


    More On topic;

    I personally Like the dice-tricks. It's a flavor I'm not used to, it lets my players form satisfyingly effective combinations of charm effects, it makes the game feel more urgent without straying into the path of paranoia and often leads to those 'ah hah! you activated my trap card!' moments of gaming that I love so much.
    I agree with isator, but another fun way to get around JET is to use cats paws who all themselves believe what they say 100%, leaving your KET player to question things I'd he assumes JET gives him objective fact instead of subjective truth.

    Leave a comment:


  • Elkovash
    replied
    Originally posted by Isator Levi View Post
    *snip*
    My Take on the situation is thus; If Keen-Worldly Cobalt, the Solar Investigator, knows unfailingly that Dastardly Devlin is lying to The Sword Prince Gensuji in an attempt to force him to go to war in the Hundred Kingdoms, it does not follow that Cobalt has an easier time convincing said Sword Prince to do the opposite. It's a starting point, but there are a lot more people Creation than the Player characters that manipulators can target (with a significantly higher chance of success) that can have as dramatic and terrible consequences. It doesn't negate the cool charm by having everyone important in creation always using double-speak, and acts rather as a tool to open more stories. Especially if Dastardly Devlin has gone toe-to-toe with Cobalt in the past and has picked his moment of victory in the full knowledge that Cobalt knows, but is in no better position to stop it.


    More On topic;

    I personally Like the dice-tricks. It's a flavor I'm not used to, it lets my players form satisfyingly effective combinations of charm effects, it makes the game feel more urgent without straying into the path of paranoia and often leads to those 'ah hah! you activated my trap card!' moments of gaming that I love so much.

    Leave a comment:

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