Artifact 5 at Essence 1

[TheCountAlucard]

Oh definitely, but mortal swordsmiths don't have that option.

Yes, and? Is there really a giant line of people wanting to play mortal swordsmiths who only ever make swords and don't do even tangentially-related things? I've expressed puzzlement at this before - to me, it doesn't really seem conducive to player-character-dom.

Besides, the point you made was that one could not play a swordsmith who only makes swords. I provided one way to do so.

Do you want another way? (Some folks seem to just want a convenient target to tear down.)

Make tourney swords. Make wooden swords. Fix damaged swords. Make some tools for your smithy. All can be done as basic projects, netting you silver XP to fuel major projects such as forging battle-ready swords. Doing it in a way that fulfills your objectives nets you enough silver XP that you won't even need to do this sort of thing all that often. You don't even need Charms.

[Colin_Fredericks]

Yes, and? Is there really a giant line of people wanting to play mortal swordsmiths who only ever make swords and don't do even tangentially-related things? I've expressed puzzlement at this before - to me, it doesn't really seem conducive to player-character-dom.

Besides, the point you made was that one could not play a swordsmith who only makes swords. I provided one way to do so.

Do you want another way? (Some folks seem to just want a convenient target to tear down.)

Make tourney swords. Make wooden swords. Fix damaged swords. Make some tools for your smithy. All can be done as basic projects, netting you silver XP to fuel major projects such as forging battle-ready swords. Doing it in a way that fulfills your objectives nets you enough silver XP that you won't even need to do this sort of thing all that often. You don't even need Charms.

If you could not "some folks" me, I would really appreciate it. I get that you're annoyed, but that comes across as kind of passive-aggressive.

Here's what's at the heart of the swordsmith argument for me. I like a game system that says things about the world. For example, I liked that the stunting system, from the beginning, made Exalted into a game of larger-than-life characters. I only like about half of what the current crafting system says about the setting, because if this is really how building things works in this world, it feels like some jobs don't exist in this world, and I think future writers will not catch that implication. Ignoring that kind of thing is not how I play games. I genuinely care about how system informs setting.

If a game doesn't allow me to play characters described in the fiction, that feels wrong to me. I point it out in the hopes that there will be done kind of official patch or acknowledgement, not just to test things down.

[Lanaya]

I'm not sure that's true. I know you should be able to repurchase higher-essence versions, but I'm not sure that your existing charms treat you as if you had higher essence.

Supernal counts your essence as 5 for purchasing and upgrading, page 255 defines upgrading as those effects.

[Colin_Fredericks]

Supernal counts your essence as 5 for purchasing and upgrading, page 255 defines upgrading as those effects.

Oh wow - that IS awesome. Thanks for the reference. I'll need to work that in. I might have to double-check tomorrow's Wyld-Shaping post too, in case one of those charms had a high-Essence effect I missed.

[TGUEIROS]

If you could not "some folks" me, I would really appreciate it. I get that you're annoyed, but that comes across as kind of passive-aggressive.

Here's what's at the heart of the swordsmith argument for me. I like a game system that says things about the world. For example, I liked that the stunting system, from the beginning, made Exalted into a game of larger-than-life characters. I only like about half of what the current crafting system says about the setting, because if this is really how building things works in this world, it feels like some jobs don't exist in this world, and I think future writers will not catch that implication. Ignoring that kind of thing is not how I play games. I genuinely care about how system informs setting.

If a game doesn't allow me to play characters described in the fiction, that feels wrong to me. I point it out in the hopes that there will be done kind of official patch or acknowledgement, not just to test things down.

System as setting physics will cause confusion and disappointment. Just an observation.

[Colin_Fredericks]

System as setting physics will cause confusion and disappointment. Just an observation.

I actually find the opposite to be true. Settings unsupported by their system, or systems that don't agree with their setting, are what causes problems at my hand table.

[Sanctaphrax]

Nice example. I'm not sure whether that amount of silver crafting would fall under the "gaming the system" rules, but I'm also not sure whether I care.

Working 9 to 5 at a restaurant: the new face of min-maxing.

Look into the Craft Charms. If you're a Solar and you don't want to have to do basic projects, you can give yourself silver XP every time you sleep.

A pretty trivial amount of them. You'd be better off shoeing some horses.

Fortunately, a smith can do that. No idea what mortal architects are supposed to do.

Probably not worth dwelling on it. Preventing/discouraging character concepts that don't involve minor creations isn't even the fifth-worst problem with this flaming mess of a system.

[TGUEIROS]

I actually find the opposite to be true. Settings unsupported by their system, or systems that don't agree with their setting, are what causes problems at my hand table.

Thats ok, but its been said that mechanics are not physics, if I'm not mistaken by the developers. So having this expectation for this game is setting yourself up for some frustration and not getting some of the design intent.

[Kyman201]

If a game doesn't allow me to play characters described in the fiction, that feels wrong to me. I point it out in the hopes that there will be done kind of official patch or acknowledgement, not just to test things down.

I don't think that I've seen many fictional smiths who did swords and didn't do anything else. Maybe we're not reading the same stuff, but most of the swordsmiths I've seen were surly bastards who USED to make the finest swords in the land, but they've retired since then and now work as a humble smith, making things like knives, horseshoes, and nails, but then Hero Protagonist inspires them to get out their GOOD forge hammer to make the Legendary Sword of Ass Whuppin'.

I also feel that saying "No, I make swords UND NOTHING ELSE" is a little limiting, but I admit that I personally would more likely make a focused Swordsmith by giving him Craft (Weaponsmithing) and seeing if I could give him a specialty in Craft (Weaponsmithing) (Swords). Since honestly, why limit yourself to swords when axes and spears are pretty damn awesome too?

[Colin_Fredericks]

I don't think that I've seen many fictional smiths who did swords and didn't do anything else. Maybe we're not reading the same stuff, but most of the swordsmiths I've seen were surly bastards who USED to make the finest swords in the land, but they've retired since then and now work as a humble smith, making things like knives, horseshoes, and nails, but then Hero Protagonist inspires them to get out their GOOD forge hammer to make the Legendary Sword of Ass Whuppin'.

See, that is a GREAT example of what this system does particularly well. That sort of drama, that sort of character. Ex3 totally nails that.

That's the kind of thing I love - when the system makes a concept like that make total sense.

[TheCountAlucard]

A pretty trivial amount of them. You'd be better off shoeing some horses.

Such is the cost of declaring that you're too good to do basic projects!

Here's what's at the heart of the swordsmith argument for me. I like a game system that says things about the world.

The world does not play by the rules of the game system. NPCs don't gain XP and largely aren't expected to track expenditures of craft points.

I only like about half of what the current crafting system says about the setting, because if this is really how building things works in this world, it feels like some jobs don't exist in this world, and I think future writers will not catch that implication.

Some jobs don't exist in this world. Creation has no pizza delivery boys, for instance. Other jobs do exist in Creation, but are only supported in the places with the very highest levels of infrastructure, places like Nexus, the Imperial City, and Chiaroscuro. A smith who only makes swords is one of those, because this level of hyper-specialization is useless to small communities who need gates and nails and horseshoes and stirrups and plows and sickles, and don't have the luxury of having an entire street full of smiths to do those other things and let him focus on sword-making.

Ignoring that kind of thing is not how I play games. I genuinely care about how system informs setting.

The system is designed to facilitate player characters engaging epic and mythical deeds, and not much else - there are no rules, for instance, for passing a kidney stone, nor does it mean kidney stones don't exist in Creation. Or growing crops - farmers obviously still exist! Compare Quick Characters, who only have dice pool ratings for dice actions the ST expects them to take!

If a game doesn't allow me to play characters described in the fiction, that feels wrong to me.

Okay, then tell me, where has the fiction described a heroic mortal who only ever makes swords?

[Sanctaphrax]

I also feel that saying "No, I make swords UND NOTHING ELSE" is a little limiting, but I admit that I personally would more likely make a focused Swordsmith by giving him Craft (Weaponsmithing) and seeing if I could give him a specialty in Craft (Weaponsmithing) (Swords). Since honestly, why limit yourself to swords when axes and spears are pretty damn awesome too?

Aren't all battle-ready weapons major projects?

It seems like a minor issue regardless, though. People who want to play architects or Masamune the legendary swordsmith are not that common.

There are much bigger problems, like the overall pointlessness of the point system.

See, that is a GREAT example of what this system does particularly well. That sort of drama, that sort of character. Ex3 totally nails that.

That's the kind of thing I love - when the system makes a concept like that make total sense.

I'm not so sure about that. The way the slot system works, you generally want to have a bunch of high-level projects on the go while you work on lesser stuff.

[Kyman201]

Aren't all battle-ready weapons major projects?

I think any ST that doesn't actively hate you would be willing to say that like, a knife or a spear isn't a major project.

It seems like a minor issue regardless, though. People who want to play architects or Masamune the legendary swordsmith are not that common.

There are much bigger problems, like the overall pointlessness of the point system.

Pointlessness? Yeah, technically I've got nothing to say in response to that beyond "Well I like it", and then just comes down to a matter of opinion, and I'll just drop it there rather than make this yet another thread on discussing whether the Craft system is alright or if it sucks several bags of dicks.

[Sanctaphrax]

Fair enough. I'm not terribly interested in fighting over it either.

I'm expecting the community to come to a pretty-accurate rough consensus on the quality of the rules over time, like it usually does. We can let time judge the issue for us.

[Kyman201]

Jokes about how the Crafting System is the new Lunars aside. It might be a bit too late in production for the Devs to totally rework the Craft system, but I dunno, they might publish another idea in the Arms of the Chosen book... I don't know.