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  • #16
    Originally posted by Sanctaphrax View Post

    It should definitely only be once per day. I'll edit that.
    Would it be too unbalanced to give it a reset condition? I ask because I find those entertaining, generally speaking.


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    • #17
      Okay, I have to say, probably my favorite feature? Adding extra rolls on the Artifact Crafting Check based on your resources and Workshop. I dunno if I'll use the FULL reset, but I might see about adding an additional Terminus roll to Artifact Crafting based on those factors.


      Disclaimer: In favor of fun and enjoyment, but may speak up to warn you that you're gonna step on a metaphorical land mine

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      • #18
        Originally posted by BlueWinds View Post
        Yes, I'm working on a rewrite of the entire charms chapter, with more precise language, general simplifications all around, and a reduction in space. I'm up to halfway through Lore right now (Wyld-Shaping Technique can really be condensed down to about half a page, making it the longest charm in my re-write so far). I'll share parts of it in a week or two, once I've gone back and tightened up the early charms (I hadn't completely settled on a standard wording for some effects when I started in on Archery).
        I'd be very keen to see that.

        Originally posted by danelsan View Post
        Would it be too unbalanced to give it a reset condition? I ask because I find those entertaining, generally speaking.
        Doubt it. What did you have in mind?

        Originally posted by Kyman201 View Post
        Okay, I have to say, probably my favorite feature? Adding extra rolls on the Artifact Crafting Check based on your resources and Workshop. I dunno if I'll use the FULL reset, but I might see about adding an additional Terminus roll to Artifact Crafting based on those factors.
        I like that bit too.

        IIRC you're at least vaguely in favour of the system as it stands. So let me ask: how do the tweaks look to you?


        EX3 Craft Rewrite

        Sanctaphrax is not a person
        -Chejop Kejak

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Sanctaphrax View Post
          I like that bit too.

          IIRC you're at least vaguely in favour of the system as it stands. So let me ask: how do the tweaks look to you?
          I still have yet to read all the charms, and I'm tentative on it until I get some actual testing in. Thing is, I've got all of one crafter in my group, and he seems to be pretty set on using the RAW for now.

          Edit: I have to say I see what you're going for, and for the most part I like these ideas. Also, I'd like to apologize, since I opened this thread in the exact WRONG state of mind. Nothing personal, but your thread title made me feel more than a little contrary simply by the way it was worded.
          Last edited by Kyman201; 01-01-2016, 10:14 PM.


          Disclaimer: In favor of fun and enjoyment, but may speak up to warn you that you're gonna step on a metaphorical land mine

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Sanctaphrax View Post
            I kind of agree, except in canon Durability-Enhancing Technique only costs 5m. And making non-Artifact crafting worse would go against what I'm trying to do here.

            Then again, the Charm has been upgraded in other ways. Maybe I should tone it down a bit.

            What if it didn't make the object permanently immune to mundane attacks? Normal wear and tear would still be prevented, and the difficulty to break the thing would still go up, but mortals could at least try.
            I didn't realize this was the same as the original charm. In the grand scheme of things, it probably doesn't matter much, so you may as well leave it alone.

            Hm, okay. I want there to be a reward for working all day, though.

            What if it doubled mote recovery on hours spent helping people?

            And yeah, the work should be genuinely worthwhile. I'll add a note to that effect.
            +1wp and double mote recovery sounds reasonable to me. That makes crafting the equivalent of resting for a devoted crafter, so that there is no reason not to craft all the time.

            It should definitely only be once per day. I'll edit that.

            Dunno about the other change. I'll think about it.
            The only other charm that grants Willpower to a group is Aria of Victory, and that requires you to spend the Willpower by your next turn. I think group Willpower recovery is very powerful in 3E. Making it only work when your targets are at half temp Willpower means it would function when you need it most without turning it into a routinely-used Willpower factory.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Kyman201 View Post
              Edit: I have to say I see what you're going for, and for the most part I like these ideas. Also, I'd like to apologize, since I opened this thread in the exact WRONG state of mind. Nothing personal, but your thread title made me feel more than a little contrary simply by the way it was worded.
              It's fine. It's not like you said anything offensive.

              Actually, I was expecting this thread to be way more acrimonious than it actually is. Maybe people are tired of arguing. Or maybe declaring that I wouldn't reply to rebuttals killed everyone's enthusiasm.

              Originally posted by pfstrack View Post
              I didn't realize this was the same as the original charm. In the grand scheme of things, it probably doesn't matter much, so you may as well leave it alone.
              I'm actually not sure exactly which parts are the same...the original's not exactly clear. But whatever. I'll leave it alone.

              Originally posted by pfstrack View Post
              +1wp and double mote recovery sounds reasonable to me. That makes crafting the equivalent of resting for a devoted crafter, so that there is no reason not to craft all the time.
              Alright, I'll change it.

              Originally posted by pfstrack View Post
              The only other charm that grants Willpower to a group is Aria of Victory, and that requires you to spend the Willpower by your next turn. I think group Willpower recovery is very powerful in 3E. Making it only work when your targets are at half temp Willpower means it would function when you need it most without turning it into a routinely-used Willpower factory.
              Alright, that's convincing. I'll change it.


              EX3 Craft Rewrite

              Sanctaphrax is not a person
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              • #22
                Since the premise of the thread seems to be that these charms and systems could universally replace the ones in the book, there's a lot I could say about that. I'm not interested in reprising old arguments, but if it's not threadcrapping, I could spell out what doesn't work for someone like me who enjoys how Craft works now. Also I see some issues that, while they don't concern me, would probably be significant in games where people strongly feel the pull of mechanical incentives.


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                And mountain magic heavy hung
                The supermen would walk in file
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                • #23
                  Go for it.


                  EX3 Craft Rewrite

                  Sanctaphrax is not a person
                  -Chejop Kejak

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                  • #24
                    I've been alright with the Craft system, but I can't find it in me to get excited for most of the charms, which is a sad state of affairs. I don't have a problem getting excited about almost every other charm tree.
                    Having taken a quick glance over your suggested changes, I am curious to try them out.
                    I'll be starting a short game with a friend of mine, and we just agreed to try your version of Craft.

                    First thing I noticed I didn't quite like is committing big amounts of essence just to get a bunch of relatively mundane servants. But then again, you do get to basically whip them out at a moment's notice, if you've prepared the vessels/bodies.
                    I guess I don't have a problem with the charms themselves (I'd take them over the charms in the backer pdf any day), but I'd rather have something that allows me to make them permanent in some way.

                    I'd like to share with you a merit we created and have been using in my group. This, of course, assumes the normal rules in the backer pdf for craft as well as sorcerous projects, apart from something I note at the end. Anyone feel free to salvage any part you find agreeable, or use it as inspiration:

                    (4-point merit) By Runes and Cogs:
                    During the preparation of a Sorcerous Working, the character is capable of using a material object as an anchor for the Working. This not only makes most workings more versatile, since the item may be moved (even if at great cost) but also makes it vulnerable. Even mere mortals might destroy a Sorcerous Working created in this way by defacing the carvings of an obelisk or hammering at a clockwork servant until important bits break.
                    Repairing the broken object does not normally restore the working’s magic, though there may be ways a lawgiver craftsman might be able to restore the object in a manner that restores even the undone magic.
                    (Comment: Maybe Realizing the Form Supernal or a new Craft Charm?)
                    The sorcerer does not need to spend xp for his sorcery, but will have to guard his constructions, if he wishes them to endure.
                    If the sorcerer creates an artifact mostly or for the sole purpose of being part of a sorcerous working, the magic can be restored by simply repairing the artifact. This allows the sorcerer to, for example, create automatons that defend themselves or are capable of hiding themselves when attacked, may give an obelisk the power to send out a warning and be untouchable for a few minutes after the original assault (though if the damage during that was enough, the working’s magic might yet temporarily fade).

                    I always try to compare this to summoning, which no longer necessarily carries an inherent risk, if you limit yourself to elementals (though at least in our group that means you either get one that can't go immaterial or that's pretty weak otherwise).
                    Ignoring the time it takes to craft a statue or a clockwork servant, the time a sorcerous working takes is still at least another week (1 per roll).
                    The only way to create more servants than elementals you might be able to summon during the same time, is creating dozens of statues and then enchanting them all with a higher ambition or even circle sorcerous working.
                    You also require non-negligible amounts of material to produce your servants/army.

                    Determining the stats are a point where one could insert some kind of mechanic, but I'd just always compare it with summoning, minus special powers elementals or demons tend to have.
                    The only real limit on summoned servants currently is willpower. Successfully summoning an elemental costs 1wp (2wp, returning 1wp for successful casting). So you can easily say you summon one every other day, without exhausting yourself.

                    We've been using this merit in a game in which we have two sorcerers, both doing lots of sorcerous workings, and both players have been happy so far. One is thrilled at saving xp the other loves not having his workings vulnerable, nor needing special materials to do whatever he wants. The merit-less sorcerer's player even commented that if this version was the norm, he'd gladly pay for a merit that removed the restriction, which I can actually see.

                    One should note that we return the xp of sorcerous projects once they are no longer relevant to the ongoing story and unlikely to make another appearance.


                    EDIT: I'll be able to give you our first feedback regarding your systems in about two days.


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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Sanctaphrax View Post
                      The tweaks:
                      Tackling these in one post.

                      Originally posted by Sanctaphrax View Post
                      3. Holden said that making parts for a bigger Project isn't itself a Project. Ignore him. If you don't have enough silver xp to make that house, feel free to do a Basic Project's worth of brick-making.
                      At first I would have said this too, but having used the system, I wouldn't. If the character is stuck building the house, think about how he gets unstuck. Actually, think about why he's stuck too - if he lacks the silver XP to finish, what would you like to say is giving him trouble? Building parts of the house is a non-answer to that - it's treating the system as an accounting project instead of a measure of what inspires the character to overcome technical problems.

                      Originally posted by Sanctaphrax View Post
                      Expand your definition of a "Project" to include anything that might provide inspiration for crafting. Discussing the design of a castle with fellow architects can be a Basic Project. Making a scale model of a manse can be a Major Project. Experimenting with chemicals, teaching an apprentice, studying a behemoth whose powers you want to emulate...they can all be Projects.
                      Almost agree, though I think it's a small step to come away from these with some kind of actual project. Experimenting with chemicals produces something, even if it's not a thing you need to solve an adventure or do anything else immediately useful. Teaching an apprentice might be done by <drumroll> making something! Talking to people or studying something can result in scale models or diagrams, though I'd challenge the player to have a use for those. In the case of talking to fellow experts, maybe you share some notes or techniques in your diagram, building an intimacy, etc.

                      Originally posted by Sanctaphrax View Post
                      Craft is one ability, divided into areas of expertise the same way Lore is.
                      I find it more interesting if craft characters can't make everything - that means different stuff will happen depending on the character's skills. And two craft characters aren't redundant. And my craft character doesn't end up able to make all the same stuff yours did in our last game ("Can you make me that stealth belt I made you last time? Thanks!"). The easier it is to learn a craft, the more common its products become.

                      Originally posted by Sanctaphrax View Post
                      First Age wonders are just really powerful artifacts. Repairing them will often take odd components, but that's because you need appropriate materials to repair anything.
                      Again, I'm OK with making the repair of First Age wonders not an easy choice. Fine by me if both materials and skill are tough to come by. In one game now the players will soon encounter First Age wonders that no one in the circle is close to knowing how to repair. Should be neat.

                      Originally posted by Sanctaphrax View Post
                      Steal the "assess item" action from the full rewrite below. (You can probably do this by the book, but I want to put some emphasis on it.)
                      Sure, seems like a straightforward application of the rules. I'd allow Bureaucracy, Lore, Investigation, and other skills to achieve the same results if the context is right, so that might be why it's not called out as a Craft thing.

                      Originally posted by Sanctaphrax View Post
                      Replace the "When finishing your project upholds, furthers, or protects one of your character’s Intimacies" objective with "When finishing your project involves roleplaying your character in an entertaining and appropriate way".
                      It sounds like this would reward the same action most of the time (unless the intimacy was one that did not involve roleplaying in an entertaining and appropriate way, in which case the player isn't invited anyway). However, the emphasis is very different - the craft xp is now more of a metagame reward for the player who roleplays well, not an in-character award for achieving something personally meaningful. Again, I get that you're trying to fix the problem of having meaningless intimacies, but there's a simpler fix.

                      Originally posted by Sanctaphrax View Post
                      Replace the "When finishing your project produces a clear in-game gain for your character" objective with "When finishing your project moves the story forward or opens up interesting possibilities for future play".
                      See above re: metagame reward. You may not mean to, but you imply that moving the story forward is important, while I'm happy to spend some time on characterization. The wording here would put some pressure on people ("I thought my character would do this, but I didn't want to because it seemed like plot was happening and I couldn't tell how interesting the possible results would be, so I played it safe and said nothing," seems to be the thought process for a lot of people in a lot of games I've been in over the years. Not bad games, but ultimately more plot-driven and mechanics-driven than what I want right now.)

                      Originally posted by Sanctaphrax View Post
                      Replace the "When finishing your project causes another character to gain or strengthen an Intimacy toward you" with "When finishing your project provides character development to another character or illustrates an interesting detail of the setting".
                      Again, metagame currency. Fine in other games, but since Ex3 avoids them otherwise, I'd just as soon keep craft xp as a character resource.


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                      And mountain magic heavy hung
                      The supermen would walk in file
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                      • #26
                        Hey, you've done some beautiful work here, especially for something of a first draft. Here's my comments and criticisms:

                        On "the tweaks", I especially like 10, 11, and 12. These should have been there from the start.

                        I don't think you need to specify the Attribute for Craft rolls. I could see cases made for Perception or Stamina used in Craft and if Manipulation ever makes sense I don't see a reason to exclude it.

                        I don't like that you've gotten rid of project slots. The idea of a craftsman with many irons in the fire appeals to me greatly.

                        Ex3 currently seems to keep any fixed difficulties capped at difficulty 5. Adding a roll with a difficulty of 10 is really breaking the mold there.

                        I like that you've ditched Artifact N/A as a thing that the Craft system aims towards. Artifact N/A stuff should be kept to a minimum and be the culmination of an entire character arc.

                        I don't like the amount of work that needs to be put in on artifacts at the workshop for non-narrative intervals. A crafter traditionally suffers from being heavily tied to his workshop, making it difficult for the crafter to do his thing on the move. Charms and planning can alleviate some of this, but it always feels like the Storyteller has to plan all of the action to happen within a few hours of the workshop in order to include the crafter. These rules put a lot more emphasis on the tools and supplies than before, which makes the problem somewhat worse.

                        Nice method of making tools, materials, and assistants matter, alongside the other circumstances.

                        I like Flawless Example - this is the sort of think I didn't even know I was missing from the Solar Craft Charms.

                        While I don't mind the short-term invincibility for Object-Strengthening Touch, making that effect permanent seems too much and potentially setting disrupting. After all, if lots of First Age stuff just plain couldn't break down or be damaged, why isn't there more intact stuff lying around?

                        Nice idea with Arete-Shifting Prana and Supreme Celestial Focus.

                        I like the rework of Words As Workshop Method. The old one was too good at solving problems, while this one gives the Solar no reason not to turn to Craft to solve the situation.

                        With Thousand-Forge Hands, I would express the narrative intervals as multiple intervals per session instead of one interval per fractional session.


                        I do not like the Art Of Permanence. Making something out of nothing and having it be permanent is just begging to be abused. I could see this going on in the Wyld, but then you'd be stepping into Wyld-Shaping Technique's territory.

                        I love all the Specialization Charms. You've found some ways to make different Crafts have different areas of excellence without bloating up on word count. I heartily approve.


                        I would like to see some rules in Dual Magnus Prana to specify how it works if your Solar is killed. Can you always claim it was the duplicate? How would one go about assassinating the Solar with a duplicate active?



                        Dead But Not Gone: Ghosts
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                        ​From The Crucible: Crafting As A Struggle

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Edward Eldritch View Post
                          We've been using this merit in a game in which we have two sorcerers, both doing lots of sorcerous workings, and both players have been happy so far. One is thrilled at saving xp the other loves not having his workings vulnerable, nor needing special materials to do whatever he wants. The merit-less sorcerer's player even commented that if this version was the norm, he'd gladly pay for a merit that removed the restriction, which I can actually see.
                          Hm, interesting. As I said in the PMs, not paying xp seems like an obviously superior option to me. But maybe that's just me (and one of your players).

                          Impromptu poll: who here would prefer their Sorcerous Workings to cost no xp, but require some kind of destroy-able physical focus?

                          Originally posted by Root View Post
                          At first I would have said this too, but having used the system, I wouldn't. If the character is stuck building the house, think about how he gets unstuck. Actually, think about why he's stuck too - if he lacks the silver XP to finish, what would you like to say is giving him trouble? Building parts of the house is a non-answer to that - it's treating the system as an accounting project instead of a measure of what inspires the character to overcome technical problems.

                          ...

                          Again, I'm OK with making the repair of First Age wonders not an easy choice. Fine by me if both materials and skill are tough to come by. In one game now the players will soon encounter First Age wonders that no one in the circle is close to knowing how to repair. Should be neat.
                          Ignoring these because discussing them would involve arguing about the quality of the system as it stands.

                          Originally posted by Root View Post
                          Almost agree, though I think it's a small step to come away from these with some kind of actual project. Experimenting with chemicals produces something, even if it's not a thing you need to solve an adventure or do anything else immediately useful. Teaching an apprentice might be done by <drumroll> making something! Talking to people or studying something can result in scale models or diagrams, though I'd challenge the player to have a use for those. In the case of talking to fellow experts, maybe you share some notes or techniques in your diagram, building an intimacy, etc.
                          Sure, it could involve making something. But why should it?

                          If the scene feels more natural without scale models or whatever, why demand them?

                          I really don't see the need to carefully define what does or doesn't count as a Project. People can handle that according to whatever suits the needs of their game.

                          Originally posted by Root View Post
                          I find it more interesting if craft characters can't make everything - that means different stuff will happen depending on the character's skills. And two craft characters aren't redundant. And my craft character doesn't end up able to make all the same stuff yours did in our last game ("Can you make me that stealth belt I made you last time? Thanks!"). The easier it is to learn a craft, the more common its products become.
                          I think you might've misread me. I was proposing a system in which craft characters can't make everything. Unless I'm misunderstanding the Lore rules, that is.

                          FWIW I'm not too worried about two crafters ending up redundant. Wouldn't worry much about two occultists, or two Melee-ers, or two sailors, either. As long as it's not Supernal for both, a decent Charmset and different styles of description should provide plenty of variety.

                          The new Charmset is written with that in mind. If I take The Craft Of War and you take Benevolent Worker's Joy, that should make our characters feel pretty different in play.

                          Originally posted by Root View Post
                          It sounds like this would reward the same action most of the time (unless the intimacy was one that did not involve roleplaying in an entertaining and appropriate way, in which case the player isn't invited anyway).
                          When everything is working properly, it should reward similar actions. But I think shifting the focus is valuable: it makes clear what you're supposed to do.

                          Even using my full rewrite, which attaches no extra importance to Intimacies, any crafter I play will probably have an Intimacy along the lines of "I like making things". It would seem inappropriate to me otherwise. I mean, I have Intimacies like that for the things I do with my life.

                          But should I automatically satisfy an objective on every project? No. So chances are, the ST would interpret the rule to be more or less what I've rewritten it as.

                          Truth is, I think most people are already using this houserule.

                          Hm. That edged unpleasantly close to the old argument. Sorry.

                          Originally posted by Root View Post
                          See above re: metagame reward. You may not mean to, but you imply that moving the story forward is important, while I'm happy to spend some time on characterization. The wording here would put some pressure on people ("I thought my character would do this, but I didn't want to because it seemed like plot was happening and I couldn't tell how interesting the possible results would be, so I played it safe and said nothing," seems to be the thought process for a lot of people in a lot of games I've been in over the years. Not bad games, but ultimately more plot-driven and mechanics-driven than what I want right now.)

                          ...

                          Again, metagame currency. Fine in other games, but since Ex3 avoids them otherwise, I'd just as soon keep craft xp as a character resource.
                          I think I know where you're coming from on most points, but this one confuses me. Isn't being a metagame currency the point of craft xp?

                          It seems designed to shape behaviour the same way Fate Points are, and characters definitely aren't aware of their point and slot counts.

                          I figured that embracing that angle would suit the craft-xp-loving crowd.

                          Worth mentioning, by the way, that the second objective is meant to encourage anything that opens up interesting possibilities for future play. If some characterization scene opens up possibilities for future conversations, it should count towards that objective.

                          Anyway, thanks for the commentary. Any opinions on the Charms?


                          EX3 Craft Rewrite

                          Sanctaphrax is not a person
                          -Chejop Kejak

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Kyeudo View Post
                            Hey, you've done some beautiful work here, especially for something of a first draft.
                            Thanks!

                            Originally posted by Kyeudo View Post
                            I don't think you need to specify the Attribute for Craft rolls. I could see cases made for Perception or Stamina used in Craft and if Manipulation ever makes sense I don't see a reason to exclude it.
                            Now that you mention it, that's true. I'll edit.

                            Originally posted by Kyeudo View Post
                            I don't like that you've gotten rid of project slots. The idea of a craftsman with many irons in the fire appeals to me greatly.
                            Under these rules you can have as many irons in the fire as you want, but you can only heat one at a time.

                            Project slots seem a bit useless without points. I guess maybe there could be a Charm that lets you make progress on up to X Artifacts at once, that'd be a bit like project slots. But I don't want mass-produced Artifacts, so I'm hesitant.

                            Originally posted by Kyeudo View Post
                            Ex3 currently seems to keep any fixed difficulties capped at difficulty 5. Adding a roll with a difficulty of 10 is really breaking the mold there.
                            True, but Artifact 5 is always gonna break the mold somehow. The goal number in core, at 100, is 25 points higher than that of the strongest Working possible. I don't really think its a problem.

                            Originally posted by Kyeudo View Post
                            I don't like the amount of work that needs to be put in on artifacts at the workshop for non-narrative intervals. A crafter traditionally suffers from being heavily tied to his workshop, making it difficult for the crafter to do his thing on the move. Charms and planning can alleviate some of this, but it always feels like the Storyteller has to plan all of the action to happen within a few hours of the workshop in order to include the crafter. These rules put a lot more emphasis on the tools and supplies than before, which makes the problem somewhat worse.
                            You have a point. Maybe you can work on an Artifact by turning over the idea in your head, so as long as you have it on your mind you can go on adventures without disrupting your rolling.

                            Originally posted by Kyeudo View Post
                            While I don't mind the short-term invincibility for [FONT=Arial]Object-Strengthening Touch, making that effect permanent seems too much and potentially setting disrupting. After all, if lots of First Age stuff just plain couldn't break down or be damaged, why isn't there more intact stuff lying around?
                            In canon, Durability-Enhancing Technique is permanent. I don't want to weaken one of the best non-Artifact tricks Solar Craft gets in the core rules too much.

                            So...Dragonbloods broke the First Age leftovers. Or they got buried.

                            Actually, maybe the effect should end when the Solar dies. That sounds cool to me. Would that alleviate your concerns?

                            Originally posted by Kyeudo View Post
                            With Thousand-Forge Hands, I would express the narrative intervals as multiple intervals per session instead of one interval per fractional session.
                            Good idea. Will edit.

                            Originally posted by Kyeudo View Post
                            I do not like the[COLOR=#000000][FONT=Arial, sans-serif] Art Of Permanence. Making something out of nothing and having it be permanent is just begging to be abused.
                            Indeed!

                            It's supposed to spark the imagination with its incredible abuse-ability. Hopefully, without actually doing anything broken.

                            I thought about it some, and I couldn't think of anything you could do with it that seemed too strong for a Solar. But hey, maybe I'm just not being creative enough...any suggestions?

                            Originally posted by Kyeudo View Post
                            I would like to see some rules in Dual Magnus Prana to specify how it works if your Solar is killed. Can you always claim it was the duplicate? How would one go about assassinating the Solar with a duplicate active?
                            You've gotta kill them twice (or identify the duplicate and kill the other body). It's very powerful. Although not nearly as powerful as it was.

                            PCs don't die much anyway, and you basically need to commit 15 motes forever to use it. But I still had my doubts about including it.

                            It might be better to require the Solar to decide which body is real in advance. The Charm would lose some of its charm, though.


                            EX3 Craft Rewrite

                            Sanctaphrax is not a person
                            -Chejop Kejak

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                            • #29
                              Not commenting on your base system without trying it.

                              Originally posted by Sanctaphrax View Post
                              Solar Craft Charms
                              Can I do them all in one go?!?

                              Originally posted by Sanctaphrax View Post
                              Flawless Example...
                              I wanted to come up with a method of mass production that felt Solar.
                              Seems like a waste of a charm - I'd just treat mass-production as a project. If someone wants to make enough spears for an army, my question is whether he has the workers/time/resources/logistical support, not whether he has a fine example. In general I'm not sure why I'd have NPCs roll to mass-produce something. If this is for a PC to mass produce items, that seems like a waste of a good Solar.

                              Originally posted by Sanctaphrax View Post
                              Master Craftsman's Eye
                              Not worth a charm. Should be easy enough to figure this out anyway, using the difficulties you have in mind. If a player asks, "Can I tell who made this?" that's difficulty 1 if he knows about the guy. If he wants more information, raise the numbers. Excellency alone will make it pretty trivial to hit those targets.

                              Originally posted by Sanctaphrax View Post
                              Arete-Shifting Prana & Supreme Celestial Focus
                              See my concern in the previous post about every craft character learning everything. Then again I'm probably not in the target audience for most of these charms anyway.

                              Originally posted by Sanctaphrax View Post
                              Benevolent Worker's Joy
                              If you were concerned about craft characters warped by the need for craft xp, this will be pretty warping too, since everyone wants WP. You might want to specify whether that WP is capped, btw. Either way, it's a strong incentive for non-craft characters to get easy WP by spending 2 dots and one charm and becoming a nice person.

                              Originally posted by Sanctaphrax View Post
                              Awe-Inspiring Feats Of Craft
                              This should happen sometimes even without a charm, since the rules are pretty clear that you don't need to use social influence to create intimacies. We don't need a Medicine charm for creating a positive intimacy when we cure someone's illness, right? Seems unnecessary.

                              Originally posted by Sanctaphrax View Post
                              The Craft Of War
                              Would not allow. Using Craft as a combat skill is pretty powerful (it already makes artifacts and infrastructure and other vital items) for one. Also I wouldn't allow someone to destroy an enemy weapon in one action - that could be abused very easily. A Disarmed weapon can be retrieved by hand or by charms, but this requires a much more specific counter. And it's another low-hanging fruit like the free WP charm, so it would be easy to get for people who don't really intend to craft. I could see a charm that lets you use CNNT and still take an action with the item that turn (e.g. make a chain out of scrap, roll a normal attack or gambit), but that's as far as I would go.

                              Originally posted by Sanctaphrax View Post
                              Tireless Workhorse Method
                              Would not be interested in Solar casting a spell on assistants. Also, this seems like another charm for making Solars into factories, which always strikes me as wrong.

                              Originally posted by Sanctaphrax View Post
                              Gaze Of The Great Maker...[I]This exists mainly because I want my Craft Solar to be capable of it. Glance at a disguised Sidereal assassin, notice that his boots were made by a craft-god, get suspicious. Hopefully it's not too much work for the ST
                              ST should just ask you to roll Per + Craft (cobbler) or Per + Investigation to notice the exceptional quality of the boots. Since we already have an investigation charm that tells the player when to roll if he misses a hint or the ST judges it too subtle to catch without a charm, maybe model it off that if you really want to buy a charm. But this seems thin for a craft charm, since investigation is all about noticing stuff and craft is not. Something like this would just be part of the basic fabric of the game in my experience. Also the Sidereal is a moron.

                              Originally posted by Sanctaphrax View Post
                              Words As Workshop Method
                              The original charm solved the important problem of how someone makes artifacts, performs complex surgery, and does other fancy stuff in a very mobile game that might otherwise make such a character unplayable. If that's not a problem to you, no worries.

                              As for the charm itself, idk, I can get down with the Solar pulling out tools from her essence, but I feel like skipping over the need for materials turns the Solar into a bit more of a wizard. Now she's making little force sculptures that do literally anything. Powerful, but in a way that removes too many obstacles for my tastes. Also a very easy charm to grab, for such a miraculous effect.

                              Originally posted by Sanctaphrax View Post
                              Breach-Healing Method... I like the idea of this Charm as written but some parts of it don't sit right with me. Particularly the rigidly-defined radius: it feels mechanistic to me, and creates weird huddles.
                              This version is a buff that the Solar could use every day on her comrades. Feels more like a fire-and-forget spell and less like the Solar's effort. In the original the effect is localized and temporary, so at least her actions are uplifting the people around her, and when she runs out of strength, they are no longer empowered.

                              Originally posted by Sanctaphrax View Post
                              Eternal Bulwark Of Order
                              Has there been a problem with the Wyld being too threatening and too hard to venture into for prolonged journeys? Surprised by this one.

                              Originally posted by Sanctaphrax View Post
                              The Art Of Permanence
                              Too much for me. A lot of preparation and improvisation becomes trivial when the Solar can turn her wishes into reality. Makes WST kinda pointless when you can stay home and wish diamonds all day with zero risk until you're richer than the Guild. Edit: and yes I saw the WP cost but you've made charms to get WP back, so every few days or once a week the Solar craps out diamonds, same difference.

                              Originally posted by Sanctaphrax View Post
                              Glorious Solar Chef
                              Not a fan of food buffs. Also seems very easy to do this - they'd be as common as the feasts we used to bring to WoW raids (idk if it's still this way - been a few years). I know this is a genre thing some people are into, but this feels like an obligatory buff to cast every day.

                              The alternative uses are interesting, though I'd rather use Presence or Performance.

                              Originally posted by Sanctaphrax View Post
                              Perfect Gemcutter's Art
                              Interesting, but does very little. I'd let someone with an appropriate Craft make a phosphorescent light source just by rolling the mundane skill.

                              Originally posted by Sanctaphrax View Post
                              ]Lock-Opening Touch
                              Looks like Shattering Grasp minus the broad applicability. What's the advantage here?

                              Originally posted by Sanctaphrax View Post
                              Cloth Of Steel
                              Interesting, but what stops the Solar from giving everyone in Creation indestructible clothes? Seems like it would do weird stuff if the Solar were in a generous frame of mind.

                              Originally posted by Sanctaphrax View Post
                              Arrows Of The Dawn
                              Would an Archery character ever not want Craft with this charm? Seems quite good.

                              OK, vision blurring, sleep now. Hopefully this comes off as constructive criticism. More later if I'm not on ignore.
                              Last edited by Root; 01-02-2016, 05:34 AM.


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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Root View Post
                                Seems like a waste of a charm - I'd just treat mass-production as a project. If someone wants to make enough spears for an army, my question is whether he has the workers/time/resources/logistical support, not whether he has a fine example. In general I'm not sure why I'd have NPCs roll to mass-produce something. If this is for a PC to mass produce items, that seems like a waste of a good Solar.
                                You activate the Charm once, give the result to someone, they and their friends become vastly better at making something. Sprinkle a few around and you can revolutionize a whole economy. Plus, making one example is much quicker and easier than churning out hundreds of something.

                                Do you really not see the uses?

                                Originally posted by Root View Post
                                Not worth a charm. Should be easy enough to figure this out anyway, using the difficulties you have in mind. If a player asks, "Can I tell who made this?" that's difficulty 1 if he knows about the guy. If he wants more information, raise the numbers. Excellency alone will make it pretty trivial to hit those targets.
                                You're way way friendlier with assessment rolls than I am.

                                If you wanted to work out whether someone made something without magic, I'd require that a) you spend some time looking the thing over, b) you know what the guy's work looks like, and c) the guy has a style that's actually recognizable. With this, you can identify the work of someone you met once in passing last year at a glance.

                                Plus you can figure out what Artifacts are called and do. There are some Lore Charms that just do that, and this is stronger than they are.

                                Plus you can evaluate someone's nature by looking at their work, which is normally just not possible.

                                Originally posted by Root View Post
                                If you were concerned about craft characters warped by the need for craft xp, this will be pretty warping too, since everyone wants WP. You might want to specify whether that WP is capped, btw. Either way, it's a strong incentive for non-craft characters to get easy WP by spending 2 dots and one charm and becoming a nice person.
                                It's capped. Will specify.

                                The warping worries were mostly other people. Still, I don't want this to be overpowered.

                                What's the consensus here? Is this a must-have?

                                Originally posted by Root View Post
                                This should happen sometimes even without a charm, since the rules are pretty clear that you don't need to use social influence to create intimacies. We don't need a Medicine charm for creating a positive intimacy when we cure someone's illness, right? Seems unnecessary.
                                But with the Charm it almost always happens, and if it would happen anyway it happens better.

                                Originally posted by Root View Post
                                Would not allow. Using Craft as a combat skill is pretty powerful (it already makes artifacts and infrastructure and other vital items) for one. Also I wouldn't allow someone to destroy an enemy weapon in one action - that could be abused very easily. A Disarmed weapon can be retrieved by hand or by charms, but this requires a much more specific counter. And it's another low-hanging fruit like the free WP charm, so it would be easy to get for people who don't really intend to craft. I could see a charm that lets you use CNNT and still take an action with the item that turn (e.g. make a chain out of scrap, roll a normal attack or gambit), but that's as far as I would go.
                                I really think you're overestimating the power of this one.

                                Destroying a weapon would obviously be a harder gambit than just knocking one away. Remember that the ST sets gambit difficulties, and that using Craft isn't really any stronger than using any other Ability.

                                Originally posted by Root View Post
                                Would not be interested in Solar casting a spell on assistants. Also, this seems like another charm for making Solars into factories, which always strikes me as wrong.
                                You're not casting a spell, just leading them supernaturally well. Like Solars do.

                                I'm not big on factories either, but if you're writing "super awesome skilled hero" you pretty much have to touch on "does the work of twenty" at some point. It's too obvious not to.

                                Originally posted by Root View Post
                                ST should just ask you to roll Per + Craft (cobbler) or Per + Investigation to notice the exceptional quality of the boots. Since we already have an investigation charm that tells the player when to roll if he misses a hint or the ST judges it too subtle to catch without a charm, maybe model it off that if you really want to buy a charm. But this seems thin for a craft charm, since investigation is all about noticing stuff and craft is not. Something like this would just be part of the basic fabric of the game in my experience. Also the Sidereal is a moron.
                                Those boots don't have exceptional quality, though. They were made to be shitty with supernatural skill.

                                The idea is that you're deeply studying every object you see, and learning more than any mortal could with a year of close examination about each one. I dunno, maybe it doesn't come across.

                                Originally posted by Root View Post
                                The original charm solved the important problem of how someone makes artifacts, performs complex surgery, and does other fancy stuff in a very mobile game that might otherwise make such a character unplayable.
                                You can already do all that with this. Just build whatever you need or use CNNT. (You'll note that CNNT is enough to build Artifacts under these rules, just at normal speed).

                                And if you don't feel like making medical gear on the spot, there are Medicine Charms for that.

                                Originally posted by Root View Post
                                This version is a buff that the Solar could use every day on her comrades. Feels more like a fire-and-forget spell and less like the Solar's effort. In the original the effect is localized and temporary, so at least her actions are uplifting the people around her, and when she runs out of strength, they are no longer empowered.
                                This is still like that. But inspiration doesn't fade instantly.

                                Originally posted by Root View Post
                                Has there been a problem with the Wyld being too threatening and too hard to venture into for prolonged journeys? Surprised by this one.
                                I just thought it would be cool.

                                Originally posted by Root View Post
                                Too much for me. A lot of preparation and improvisation becomes trivial when the Solar can turn her wishes into reality. Makes WST kinda pointless when you can stay home and wish diamonds all day with zero risk until you're richer than the Guild.
                                You can already make incredible amounts of money just by having high stats and CNNT. Of course, you still have to sell things, but that's true with this too. And using WST for money is already kinda pointless. So the wealth potential doesn't bug me.

                                Speaking about the general applications, trivializing problems is hard to avoid when you're handing out power. A few Athletics Charms and what was once an interesting obstacle is now meaningless. I accept this as the cost of writing Charms.

                                Originally posted by Root View Post
                                Not a fan of food buffs. Also seems very easy to do this - they'd be as common as the feasts we used to bring to WoW raids (idk if it's still this way - been a few years). I know this is a genre thing some people are into, but this feels like an obligatory buff to cast every day.
                                It costs willpower, I wouldn't be so quick to spam it. Especially now that it's been weakened.

                                Originally posted by Root View Post
                                Interesting, but does very little. I'd let someone with an appropriate Craft make a phosphorescent light source just by rolling the mundane skill.
                                I wouldn't. High-quality artificial light revolutionized the world when it was invented. It's a big big deal, and Creation's not even close to that technological level.

                                Plus, it's good for impressing people. Or for making money, though that's already easy.

                                Originally posted by Root View Post
                                Looks like Shattering Grasp minus the broad applicability. What's the advantage here?
                                Sometimes you wanna open a door, not tear through it. And sometimes a door is unbreakable. Shattering Grasp is usually better though.

                                Originally posted by Root View Post
                                Interesting, but what stops the Solar from giving everyone in Creation indestructible clothes? Seems like it would do weird stuff if the Solar were in a generous frame of mind.
                                It costs willpower. Not sure if it should, though. Giving everyone indestructible clothes is a very Solar thing to do.

                                Originally posted by Root View Post
                                Would an Archery character ever not want Craft with this charm? Seems quite good.
                                Ideally it should be useful but not a no-brainer. Maybe I should add a mote to the cost, I'm not sure.

                                Originally posted by Root View Post
                                OK, vision blurring, sleep now. Hopefully this comes off as constructive criticism. More later if I'm not on ignore.
                                Honestly, a lot of it comes off as looking for things to take issue with. But I'm definitely not putting you on ignore.


                                EX3 Craft Rewrite

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