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But what about Seduction ?

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  • Jen
    started a topic But what about Seduction ?

    But what about Seduction ?


    If a guy seduces a gal then it's kinda rapy, if vice versa then you play right into the sexist stereotype which make you a gigantic miso-gonist (sorry, that's word is really hard to remember for me). Soooo not that I'm complaining, but is guy-on-guy the only road that I must walk in order to find that hot and steamy seduction story ?

    I also want to ask for some examples on what do people consider a seduction attempt, do you think that it lie more in the intention (I want that guy to like/notice me) or action (It's strip time!).

    Ex3 also has sex and seduction charms, ooooh, from the way people describes them I already has a bunch of plothooks for them, finally I can do the "From Lust to Love: Hairy Crimelord and Stoic Doctor" story that I have always dream of (too bad Sidereal now don't have Celestial Bliss Trick anymore, oh well, being Sid is suffering). So how much merit does argument like "Those charm's wordcount could be use for a GM chapter", "Sex charm is asexual erasure" and "Having sex charm means players and GM will rape each other" has ? I'm not quite sure whether they are legitimate or troll concerns.

  • Sakii
    replied
    Just my little two cents, but seduction its not sex. There is a issue of Hellblazer where Constantine seduces a monkey familiar (who may by a demon) to lure it into a river to drown it.

    Translating that to exalted, i can see a solar who seduces one of the fair folk so that instead of praying into the people of the town he becomes his protector. With no sex or anthing else.

    Leave a comment:


  • Pram
    replied
    Originally posted by Totentanz View Post

    Ah, thanks for the clarification. Sometimes I think we are talking past each other because of linguistic and cultural differences.

    Some people probably WILL find male seducers inherently "rapey," in which case I think they should leave those types of characters out of their games. It strikes me as a bit hyper-sensitive, really. After all, the seven billion people on this world currently didn't get here by storks, and they didn't here by two humans happening to be horny at the same time.

    But again, if people find that objectionable, they can just excise it.

    And you can write your stories or play your games in whatever way you find interesting, or arousing, if that's your gig. I think the devs spent some effort in this edition to avoid the perception that social/sexual charms were inherently coercive. Some people can't really see magic as anything but a battering ram, though.

    To answer your question about charismatic people being perceived as "rapey," I think the answer is a qualified "no." Western Society is in the midst of re-litigating our social assumptions and rules regarding romantic and sexual interaction. There is a great deal of thoughtful conversation and debate, and unfortunately perhaps a larger chunk of histrionic ranting, blame gaming, and shaming of various flavors.
    (sorry for the spelling, English is not my first language)

    I agree... in the end it's your game and your group. Mutual respect is the rule. That's why the Red Rule is present in the game and I respect the Devs the wisdom of adding it to the game. It's the ultimate safe guard for groups whole lack that aspect.

    I never do PVP in my game so whatever charms used to kill or seduce is done in PVE (to use a midly MMO term). My group is well aware of that. My job as an ST is to make a game that is awesome for them. If they want to use charms to seduce an NPC I'm fine with that... I always have consequences. It's the same as violence and ultra violence when PCs kill NPCs... violence is violence with it's own ethical and moral (depending on the belief system) structure/consequence. I've had women play in my group and they always made sure that they were respected and never had any issues within the players.

    So if I want to tell a story in the veins of the Berzerker manga, I'll give a head's up and ask permission... if the group is not in the mood then I'll do something else (tone it down and move on). It all depends on what type of story I want to tell and what type of story my players want to participate in...

    I know that my play style might not be suited for some on this forum... that's cool. I might not like the style of your game (and the way you project your own beliefs in a Roleplaying Game,) and that's cool. I'm not gonna judge you for that and I expect the same thing in return.

    Mutual respect between players and STs has stood the test of time for me (since V:the Masquarade 2nd edition) so I never had any problems with that aspect of the game.

    When the players feel safe with one another and the ST really awesome stuff can happen RP wise!

    So yeah.. we have Charms in the book that contain elements of romance/sex... as we have Charms that kill people stylishly. It is what it is... if you don't like it, don't use it. How simple is that? It doesn't break the game in my opinion!

    My two cents,

    Leave a comment:


  • Totentanz
    replied
    Originally posted by Jen View Post
    The rapey thing is what I heard in my Male seductor thread a while back, the explaination for why people don't create those kind of character is that they are, well, kinda rapey.




    Some people say that due to Charms, every time an Exalted or a magical being talk to a human the former is basically trying to rape the former.

    I mean, I don't have much life experience, but does being talked to by a charismatic person considered attempt rape in the Western world ?
    Ah, thanks for the clarification. Sometimes I think we are talking past each other because of linguistic and cultural differences.

    Some people probably WILL find male seducers inherently "rapey," in which case I think they should leave those types of characters out of their games. It strikes me as a bit hyper-sensitive, really. After all, the seven billion people on this world currently didn't get here by storks, and they didn't here by two humans happening to be horny at the same time.

    But again, if people find that objectionable, they can just excise it.

    And you can write your stories or play your games in whatever way you find interesting, or arousing, if that's your gig. I think the devs spent some effort in this edition to avoid the perception that social/sexual charms were inherently coercive. Some people can't really see magic as anything but a battering ram, though.

    To answer your question about charismatic people being perceived as "rapey," I think the answer is a qualified "no." Western Society is in the midst of re-litigating our social assumptions and rules regarding romantic and sexual interaction. There is a great deal of thoughtful conversation and debate, and unfortunately perhaps a larger chunk of histrionic ranting, blame gaming, and shaming of various flavors.

    Leave a comment:


  • squidheadjax
    replied
    Originally posted by Weimann View Post
    How would you feel if it was double 9s and Intimacies you based seduction on counted as one level higher than normally instead?
    Then it'd fall somewhere between 'laying it on thick' and just being fucking legendarily alluring, at which point context of use would be the deciding factor in skeeviness.

    Leave a comment:


  • Weimann
    replied
    Originally posted by squidheadjax View Post
    This is what galls me about Rose-Lipped Seduction Style in particular
    How would you feel if it was double 9s and Intimacies you based seduction on counted as one level higher than normally instead?

    Leave a comment:


  • squidheadjax
    replied
    Originally posted by Weimann View Post
    The problem with sex magic would be twofold: not only does it cloud the judgement, causing you to maybe make different decision than you would have if you were "sober", but it's also inflicted from the outside. The parallels to date rape are obvious.

    Now, add to this that Charms are not supposed to be magical outside effects in Exalted, but expression of supernal skill, yet they are still powered by the "magic juice" of the system. That's a very double message, and I frankly find this type of dubiousness to be the best argument against sex Charms (and any kind of magical social influence) I've heard. Not enough to make me dismiss them as a concept, but I can see why people would be bothered by this.

    (Side note: It's an interesting question whether being really, really good at making people like you can also be objectionable? I'm not sure. I suppose it'd have to depend on what you do with that skill in that case.)
    This is what galls me about Rose-Lipped Seduction Style in particular, in ways the Red Rule alone can't fix (save by nuking it off the page entirely). It's a charm that bypasses all the elements that make the social system something other than verbal mind control, wrapped up in the overall package of the shakily-consistent conceptualization of Charms, and it doesn't even have the Psyche keyword that says 'this is not normal'.

    The only charm in the game that explicitly ignores all the Unacceptable Influence protections - need for an intimacy, sexual orientation (or lack of one!), risk of death - is the one that lets a character talk someone into bed.

    That really doesn't sit right with me.

    (Of course, some Psyche charms like Hypnotic Tongue Technique would benefit from clarifying exactly how much they override, too, since they have to override at least some to function...)
    Last edited by squidheadjax; 01-17-2016, 05:56 AM.

    Leave a comment:


  • GivenFlesh
    replied
    Originally posted by Korhal_IV View Post

    If you poke around in kinkster and feminist forums, you'll find the topic of "active consent" - that is, slowing down and making sure your partner is eager and willing for each new round of weird fun stuff. The Red Rule is basically a wordy, nerdy version of active consent.
    Active consent and safeguards, yah. A big part of active consent is understanding that the action/topic can be turbulent. And especially in kinkster communities, it can be purposefully pushing delicate buttons that have the potential to go too far. But the fun can sometimes be in resisting, in playing it up, or in keeping things moving quickly. So... You build back doors, quick ways of breaking free in case stuff gets too heavy, too fast. You outright say that it can be ended at any time with a word, make sure that everyone involved knows when to pull back a bit.

    It's healthy to talk about it, really! It's just kinda good practice. Much better to look at it as a lifeline than as a slap on the wrist. And to look at it as normal and okay. Cause one of the biggest issues you can run into is usually... Thinking it's not okay to pull away when you're uncomfortable. Thinking you'll hurt someone's feelings while being in a super bad place, yourself. So, stated in the rules to encourage that~

    Leave a comment:


  • kindledRadial
    replied
    I'd like to second all this love for the Red Rule, which is now a house rule in all my games and will probably be turned into a sign to post above our gaming table at some point.

    As to the basic question of "when is seduction okay and when is it rape" well that's an easy answer: rape is when you have sex with someone without their consent, seduction is a social maneuver to get that person's consent. The latter is healthy behavior and glorious fodder for RP between enthusiastic participants, the former is a game-ruiner and also just really really not something I ever want at my table from PCs.

    More to the actual point though, both genders have negative stereotypes associated with seduction attempts, but the specific stereotypes and the societal backlash will be very different. In general, men who openly seduce are "dangerous" and "most likely rapists" and women who openly seduce are "impure" and "most likely damaged goods." People will express their preference for one admonishment over another, but they're both honestly quite bad no matter who you are.

    I've had a lot of amorous characters at the table over the years and it's never been a problem for me. In general, my guideline has become "it never hurts to ask once" and thematically that seems to hold true. Whether male or female, a character who propositions every random passerby is usually "quirky and liberated" until they press the issue a second time after being told no. There will be people who try and slut-shame even for that first attempt and if it really makes your players uncomfortable then I'd recommend not encouraging it, but from a storytelling perspective the one free try rule works well in my experience.

    Leave a comment:


  • Argonometra
    replied
    I am glad that, what with the Lover and Raksi, Exalted acknowledges that women can also commit rape. Speaking as a woman, I have never felt that positive discrimination (of the kind that all women are pure flawless saints and/or victims who exist solely to display the- inevitably male- villain's cruelty) betters our society or achieves anything- except making flat characters who bear more resemblance to Ebony Dark'ness than anyone in real life.

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  • Marros56
    replied
    I personally view the Red Rule as less a player saying "You can't even try seduce me. ever." and more an agreement of "okay, we can try to seduce each other, but invoke this if your character doesn't swing that way or if someone's laying it on too thick."

    Leave a comment:


  • The Wizard of Oz
    replied
    I don't like people playing dudes as seducers, not because I have any great objection to it, but because I've seen it played as a character's concept a couple of times and it has always been played badly. Maybe with different players it could work.
    I find that as a general rule, I find active (as opposed to just standing there looking hot) seduction in games pretty fun when it's played for laughs,* and kind of annoying when it's done seriously, if I'm involved (as the ST, it's not a concept I'm interested in playing). I don't really mind if other people do it, it's just boring to me.
    But honestly, that's the same whether it's a boy or a girl character. I think perhaps, due to cultural power differentials, I'm more likely to find the girl seducing the guy amusing than the other way round, because I'm laughing at the guy's naievety. If it's serious I find it kind of dull/annoying. Which is sort of sensible (due to cultural power differentials, as I said) but also kind of sexist really.

    *We have a lot of romance, seduction, and romance-based drama in the game I play, rather than the one I run, but it's generally comedy while the evil sorcerers or cultists or whatever are the serious part.

    Leave a comment:


  • Lundgren
    replied
    It is all about expectation handling. There is nothing wrong with characters spending time on nag sex or playing peoples emotions, or other creepy behavior, as it is a story. However, just as there shouldn't be a splatter scene in a romantic movie, make sure the people in question are comfortable with a topic first before including it. If it is a story for a book, it is about making sure the potential readers have a chance about finding that type of topic might show up. For gaming, it is about the people around the table.

    Then, it is a good thing to be aware what it actually means, so one doesn't just toss it in out of habit. Personally, I love exploring different mindsets, which if we leave modern settings often mean picking values for my character (or NPC's) that could be uncomfortable for someone with an escapistic agenda.

    As safewords have already been mentioned in the thread, I would recommend looking at something as X-cards as well; http://www.gamingaswomen.com/posts/2...th-the-x-card/

    Leave a comment:


  • Weimann
    replied
    I don't think we should be ashamed that the Red Rule is spelled out explicitly. I mean, it would be great if we were perfect, but since we aren't, it can't hurt to talk about how to get better.

    Our culture is pretty nervous when it comes to sex, and likes to not talk about it while still wanting to engage in it. I think the explicit language of the Red Rule is a way of setting the playing rules out in broad daylight. That way, you can make sure to play within them and, paradoxically, create more freedom through the formalisation of more rules.

    Leave a comment:


  • Korhal_IV
    replied
    Originally posted by Zelbinnean View Post
    It's kind of sad that the Red Rule needed to be explicitly stated in writing to put the kaibosh on this kind of action, but that's what it does. The Red Rule basically says that nobody's character can be forced into performing an intimate or sex act, using any kind of magic or mechanics or anything, unless the player is ok with it.
    If you poke around in kinkster and feminist forums, you'll find the topic of "active consent" - that is, slowing down and making sure your partner is eager and willing for each new round of weird fun stuff. The Red Rule is basically a wordy, nerdy version of active consent.

    Leave a comment:

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