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**Swooper** · 01-29-2016, 08:59 AM

I think Pulling Essence Chakra is probably too strong. In a worst case scenario, using it will allow 12 non-success dice (two ones, two twos, two threes etc up to two sixes). Any more and you get a reroll. That means that on a fairly standard 21-die pool (5+5+specialty+full excellency) you are guaranteed at least 9 successes. Any dice added to that are automatically successes as well.

Maybe it should only allow triples in the original dice results to be rerolled, any more will stick?

**The Unsung Hero** · 01-29-2016, 03:38 PM

I love that someone made charms along this line! I'm so excited to play a sorcerer!

I don't yet have insight into how balanced these are. And not sure how I feel about the Loud keyword. It feels somewhat unnecessary since I imagine someone with most of these charms would be using them fairly regularly and adding to their animas anyways. I actually liked that you're capable of somewhat subtle sorcery in this game, but I see the angle you're going for. Just a matter of preference I suppose.

I guess I didn't have anything interesting to contribute, but I try to bump any thread I think is awesome.

**Sanctaphrax** · 01-29-2016, 04:14 PM

Hm. I dunno about this. The shape sorcery Charms look basically fine, I guess. Recursive Essence Flow seems kinda weak, Sapphire Radiance seems too strong.

But I'm not really onboard with your basic principles. Solars can be subtle. And I don't think the Sorcerous Working Charms would lead a game anywhere good. Even with Solar Circle Sorcery, doing workings shouldn't be easy, and with these a Solar could pull off the hardest possible working in about a week without putting any effort into increasing Means.

I'm guessing the lack of sorcery Charms in the core wasn't an accident.

**AtG** · 01-29-2016, 09:43 PM

Charms that affect Sorcerous Workings rolls should not exist. Period. The math curve for them is exactly where it is supposed to be.

More generally, I think we do not need "charms to make your sorcery better at sorcering" to be a big design space. Sorcerers already have a primary mechanism of advancement as sorcerers - buying new spells, and advancing essence to gain access to new tiers. You don't need to layer tons and tons of incremental competence charms on top of that.

**Ladikn** · 01-30-2016, 06:03 PM

Originally posted by The Unsung Hero

I love that someone made charms along this line! I'm so excited to play a sorcerer!

I don't yet have insight into how balanced these are. And not sure how I feel about the Loud keyword. It feels somewhat unnecessary since I imagine someone with most of these charms would be using them fairly regularly and adding to their animas anyways. I actually liked that you're capable of somewhat subtle sorcery in this game, but I see the angle you're going for. Just a matter of preference I suppose.

I guess I didn't have anything interesting to contribute, but I try to bump any thread I think is awesome.

Subtle sorcery is definitely possible, and even with a couple charms is much better, but I don't see "cast multiple spells in quick succession" and "use spells to enhance sneaky stuff" as inherently compatible (or at least difficult to conceptualize for me), so it didn't quite fit with the higher essence themes anyway. That let me use the Loud keyword as a balancing mechanism.

Thank you for your feedback though!

Originally posted by Sanctaphraz

Hm. I dunno about this. The shape sorcery Charms look basically fine, I guess. Recursive Essence Flow seems kinda weak, Sapphire Radiance seems too strong.

But I'm not really onboard with your basic principles. Solars can be subtle. And I don't think the Sorcerous Working Charms would lead a game anywhere good. Even with Solar Circle Sorcery, doing workings shouldn't be easy, and with these a Solar could pull off the hardest possible working in about a week without putting any effort into increasing Means.

I'm guessing the lack of sorcery Charms in the core wasn't an accident.

Originally posted by AtG

Charms that affect Sorcerous Workings rolls should not exist. Period. The math curve for them is exactly where it is supposed to be.

More generally, I think we do not need "charms to make your sorcery better at sorcering" to be a big design space. Sorcerers already have a primary mechanism of advancement as sorcerers - buying new spells, and advancing essence to gain access to new tiers. You don't need to layer tons and tons of incremental competence charms on top of that.

While I can see the sentiment, I can't agree with the premise of "Solar's shouldn't get charms for X because X is balanced without charms." It would be similar to saying charms to make your swordsman have multiple attacks shouldn't exist because the melee mechanics are where they are supposed to be, and having more then one attack a round isn't allowed in the system. Period. The base system is balanced how it's supposed to be balanced, and Solars are supposed to come along and flip the table, throw out the equation, and write their own.

The sorcery rules have to work across the whole spectrum, from mortal to solar, and is designed with enough hooks for charms to affect. Meanwhile, Solars are supposed to be "a master of martial arts, sorcery, or Evocations" (pg 40), and it just doesn't FEEL like they are the masters of Sorcery. Heck, until Essence 5 they are just as good as everyone else, with only their excellencies pumping them up (making them the equal of Lunars, Abyssals, and arguably Sidereals).

There is currently nothing about Solars pre-Essence 5 that makes them feel like the undisputed masters of sorcery among the chosen, which is in their description but not implementation. That in addition to the mechanical hooks present in the system (which I assume were intentionally put in, much like all the hooks in the combat and social systems) make me feel like charms for sorcery should be there, but were possibly cut for space or saved for Paths of Bridget (which, from the description in the brochure, will have sorcery charms anyway). These charms are just intended to be a stopgap anyway until we get official sorcery charms in a couple books ^_^.

An Essence 1 Solar Sorcerer, Dragon Blood Sorcerer, and Lunar Sorcerer should all be able to feel different. Not generic "Sorcerer" with different generic excellencies, same as a "mortal" Sorcerer but with more dice to throw around. Currently they feel different only by what spells and shaping rituals they have, and not how they are chosen.

Although I do agree that Solar workings should never be EASY, just not as difficult for Solars as say, a Lunar who is stretching for it. It's why I kept the dice tricks in that tree to a minimum, and focused more on controlling the outcome better and thematic tricks (making Terrestrials free at Essence 5, allowing others to pay the XP, shortening the time ala Craftsman Needs No Tools, making stretching a bit easier, etc). Looking back though, I do agree with The Unsung Hero that I made their main dice trick a bit too strong (I really like the theme of it, that may have blinded me a bit). I'll rework a bit when I'm home (along with the balance stuff Sanctaphraz mentioned). I'll probably lock the triple failures to rerolls behind Solar Circle Sorcery, and give them a different, more minor buff (maybe +1 non charm dice on triple failures, only once per number)

Thank you very much for your feedback, I'll edit the OP tonight ^_^.

**AtG** · 01-31-2016, 02:04 AM

Originally posted by Ladikn View Post

While I can see the sentiment, I can't agree with the premise of "Solar's shouldn't get charms for X because X is balanced without charms." It would be similar to saying charms to make your swordsman have multiple attacks shouldn't exist because the melee mechanics are where they are supposed to be, and having more then one attack a round isn't allowed in the system. Period. The base system is balanced how it's supposed to be balanced, and Solars are supposed to come along and flip the table, throw out the equation, and write their own.

No. It's not like that at all. In combat, there's one system for all splats, and the different tiers of ability are represented through more or less powerful splat charms and more powerful charms at higher essence.

Sorcerous Workings have this balance-by-splat-and-essence built into the mechanic. The tiers of sorcery, the penalties for working above your tier, the hard gating of tier by essence, and the guidelines for what types of effects are available at each tier are how Workings differentiate an E5 DB from an E3 Solar from an E5 Solar etc. And the math for this [i]only works if you cannot improve the rolls in any way beyond an excellency[i]. If you can get additional successes through other charms, like double 9s, suddenly the number of means required plummets. Suddenly the time taken to complete a Working plummets. Suddenly characters are able to practically achieve effects that they were not supposed to be able to do until higher essence, or without having a huge amount of means, or without being an entirely different splat.

This is why sorcery does not respect Supernal. Because the higher tier effects are not appropriate, ever to a character at lower essence, and without the appropriate sorcerous infrastructure. An ambition 3 Solar Working cannot be made any easier than it already is or you have characters just trivially rewriting the cosmos.

**Sanctaphrax** · 01-31-2016, 03:44 AM

I wouldn't go that far.

But the stuff that a basic Solar Circle Sorcerer can do with an excellency and spending a willpower for an extra success is probably supposed to be the pinnacle of Working skill. Or at least pretty close to it. Letting people go past that can trivialize Means and Finesse.

Unlike combat, Workings have a pretty clear ceiling. You can keep making fights harder to challenge a really hardcore Dawn, but Ambition 3 Finesse 5 Solar Working is as high as it goes. It should never become easy.

I think there's a bit of room for Working Charms, though. Just not a whole lot.

**Anasurimbor** · 01-31-2016, 04:29 AM

Originally posted by AtG View Post

Charms that affect Sorcerous Workings rolls should not exist. Period. The math curve for them is exactly where it is supposed to be.

So Sidereals are supposed to be better than Solars at completing Sorcerous Workings, even Solar Circle ones? The probably curve absolutely favors them, even after the penalty for working above their station, though the increased interval length is problematic.

At the Celestial level, Lunars are the equals of Solars and Sidereals are simply their superiors.

**Ladikn** · 01-31-2016, 06:12 PM

Originally posted by Sanctaphrax View Post

I wouldn't go that far.

But the stuff that a basic Solar Circle Sorcerer can do with an excellency and spending a willpower for an extra success is probably supposed to be the pinnacle of Working skill. Or at least pretty close to it. Letting people go past that can trivialize Means and Finesse.

Unlike combat, Workings have a pretty clear ceiling. You can keep making fights harder to challenge a really hardcore Dawn, but Ambition 3 Finesse 5 Solar Working is as high as it goes. It should never become easy.

I think there's a bit of room for Working Charms, though. Just not a whole lot.

I agree with you there, there's really not a whole lot of room for charms. I didn't want to mess with means or how many successes Solars needed, since they are both important for balancing. Finesse I don't mind messing with a bit (one charm), because anybody can drop the base difficulty to 1, even mortals; Eloquent Sorcerous Elegance just allows a Solar to have a bit more control at the same difficulty. I didn't want to add too many dice (editing the OP to fix Pulling Essence Chakra after this post) because I didn't want to trivialize workings; I wanted to add just enough dice trickery to make Solars better then Lunars and Sidereals so that the themes between the different chosen actually fit the mechanics, without making things trivial.

So I went with what I wrote. Making Terrestrials free at Solar circle level. Making reaching a bit easier (since Solars should be able to reach better IMO, it makes sense since they are the only group to get Solar Workings without reaching later on, it should come more naturally to them). Mitigating failures (probably my least favorite affect, thinking of nixing it completely). Messing with who's spending XP. Working quicker. Things that seem like a Solar Sorcerer should be able to do. There's a reason I put in a lot more shaping charms then working charms XD.

As far as Shaping balance, I'm also lowering the overall power of Sapphire Radiance a bit. Recursive Essence Flow I feel, while it may be a tad weak for non-supernal occult, it's in a good place strong for supernal occult, and I'd rather err on the side of "a tad too weak".

**AtG** · 01-31-2016, 07:02 PM

Originally posted by Anasurimbor View Post

So Sidereals are supposed to be better than Solars at completing Sorcerous Workings, even Solar Circle ones? The probably curve absolutely favors them, even after the penalty for working above their station, though the increased interval length is problematic.

At the Celestial level, Lunars are the equals of Solars and Sidereals are simply their superiors.

I'm almost certain that the Sidereal Excellency is going to be changed since it's just not consistent with Ex3 design at all (e.g. Craft). Yes, the QC system currently has the 2e Excellency, but the devs have told us the QC system is not representative since they haven't started work on most splats.

**Sanctaphrax** · 01-31-2016, 09:40 PM

Originally posted by Ladikn View Post

I agree with you there, there's really not a whole lot of room for charms. I didn't want to mess with means or how many successes Solars needed, since they are both important for balancing. Finesse I don't mind messing with a bit (one charm), because anybody can drop the base difficulty to 1, even mortals; Eloquent Sorcerous Elegance just allows a Solar to have a bit more control at the same difficulty. I didn't want to add too many dice (editing the OP to fix Pulling Essence Chakra after this post) because I didn't want to trivialize workings; I wanted to add just enough dice trickery to make Solars better then Lunars and Sidereals so that the themes between the different chosen actually fit the mechanics, without making things trivial.

So I went with what I wrote. Making Terrestrials free at Solar circle level. Making reaching a bit easier (since Solars should be able to reach better IMO, it makes sense since they are the only group to get Solar Workings without reaching later on, it should come more naturally to them). Mitigating failures (probably my least favorite affect, thinking of nixing it completely). Messing with who's spending XP. Working quicker. Things that seem like a Solar Sorcerer should be able to do. There's a reason I put in a lot more shaping charms then working charms XD.

As far as Shaping balance, I'm also lowering the overall power of Sapphire Radiance a bit. Recursive Essence Flow I feel, while it may be a tad weak for non-supernal occult, it's in a good place strong for supernal occult, and I'd rather err on the side of "a tad too weak".

I don't think making workings free is ever a good idea.

And even just double 7s makes it pretty easy to do any possible working. 24 dice with double 7s and a willpower for an extra success is 20.2 successes on average. Even with Finesse 5, you can expect to do an Ambition 3 Solar working in 5 rolls. Which is less than a week with your speed-booster.

I do like the ability of a reaching ahead bonus. Making it free to buy an extra success with willpower would be cool too, even if it's minor.

Speed booster is a solid idea too, but seven times faster is too much.

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