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[Complete] Ex3 Solar Charm rewrite

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Sanctaphrax View Post
    Very nice. I know a lot of people have been looking for something like this for quite a while.

    I like what you've done with God-King's Shrike, even if I still don't quite buy it in Lore.

    I'd be curious to know why you removed certain Charms. Most of the removals have pretty obvious reasons, but why get rid of

    -Empathic Recall Discipline
    Couldn't suss out what it did that Unknown Wisdom Epiphany didn't. Didn't like the implication that UWE couldn't do "meaning behind the event," which the existence of this Charm implied.

    -Splendid Magpie Approach
    Shouldn't require a Charm. Existence of Charm implied your supernaturally puissant character might otherwise need to roll to see if he fails to make a birdcall.

    -Hull-Taming Tranfusion
    Probably should be Optional rather than removed, but three health levels per ship level? I just recoiled.

    -Quicksilver Falcon's Eye
    I don't actually remember. I think I just didn't like the effect in general; I don't like the idea that "Okay, so don't apply your Resolve to this, or I'll know," is A Thing - applying your Resolve to incoming arguments should be, y'know, thinking about them, not something you consciously turn off.

    -Culture Hero Approach
    Felt like something you should be able to do just by virtue of making a Read Intentions roll. Didn't like the implication that you needed a Charm to do so.

    Thanks for the feedback!


    Homebrew: Lunar Charms for 3e

    Solar Charm Rewrite (Complete) (Now with Charm cards!)

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    • #17
      Originally posted by BlueWinds View Post

      Hah, I was wondering why you didn't have much feedback in my thread, which I thought was right up your ally.
      That's the why! It's a really great idea; I was just (a) already wrapped up in my project, and (b) didn't want to rip off yours by studying it too heavily.


      Homebrew: Lunar Charms for 3e

      Solar Charm Rewrite (Complete) (Now with Charm cards!)

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      • #18
        And here I came into the thread thinking I'd offer to LaTeX up a PDF for you like I did for Sanctaphrax's Craft charms, only to find a very familiar looking document! Always nice to see LaTeX out in the wild.

        I still need to read through these, probably over the weekend, but I have some LaTeX related comments and critiques if you're open to them.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Primefactorx01 View Post
          And here I came into the thread thinking I'd offer to LaTeX up a PDF for you like I did for Sanctaphrax's Craft charms, only to find a very familiar looking document! Always nice to see LaTeX out in the wild.

          I still need to read through these, probably over the weekend, but I have some LaTeX related comments and critiques if you're open to them.
          By all means! My TeX skills are garnered to serve a very specific niche, and this ain't it.


          Homebrew: Lunar Charms for 3e

          Solar Charm Rewrite (Complete) (Now with Charm cards!)

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Irked View Post
            By all means! My TeX skills are garnered to serve a very specific niche, and this ain't it.
            k! My TeX skills were originally fostered by the need to write scientific papers, (Or at least in that style) so I was definitely in the same boat. Everything else was learned for funsies!
            1. Why no table of contents or index? They're trivial to create if you are using custom commands rather than typing every charm by hand. They're not necessary, but on such a big document they'd at least be handy.
            2. I personally would use a two column format, since I feel it's easier to read and makes better use of whitespace because of all the line breaks. But I understand that may be a personal preference.
            3. Font issues. Looks like you're using... I think they're called bitmap fonts? They look fine printed, but on screen they can be less readable. Here's a comparison from your PDF to one of mine, blown up to something rediculous to illustrate the point. Same font, (Oh Computer Modern.) different encoding. I've also spent the last half our or so trying to replicate your issue on my system, so that I can tell you what it is that needs to be done, but I'm failing miserably. If your willing to share your header and tool chain, I might be able to figure out what it out easier.

            There might be more... but I need to head to work!

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Primefactorx01 View Post
              k! My TeX skills were originally fostered by the need to write scientific papers, (Or at least in that style) so I was definitely in the same boat. Everything else was learned for funsies![LIST=1][*]Why no table of contents or index? They're trivial to create if you are using custom commands rather than typing every charm by hand. They're not necessary, but on such a big document they'd at least be handy.
              This is me slapping my forehead, because that would be a great addition, wouldn't it? I'll go ahead and add a ToC; I'll need to look at exactly how to adapt my macros for an index.

              [*]I personally would use a two column format, since I feel it's easier to read and makes better use of whitespace because of all the line breaks. But I understand that may be a personal preference.
              It would be more compact, yeah; I played with that some in creating it. I don't really like the look of two-column, though? I prefer fewer line-breaks.

              [*]Font issues. Looks like you're using... I think they're called bitmap fonts? They look fine printed, but on screen they can be less readable. Here's a comparison from your PDF to one of mine, blown up to something rediculous to illustrate the point. Same font, (Oh Computer Modern.) different encoding. I've also spent the last half our or so trying to replicate your issue on my system, so that I can tell you what it is that needs to be done, but I'm failing miserably. If your willing to share your header and tool chain, I might be able to figure out what it out easier.
              I was using the default fonts, but this ran into problems when copy-pasting from the resultant PDF - since LaTeX doesn't map character-to-character in its PDF creation, patterns like "fl" tended not to copy-paste correctly every once in a while. (So, for instance, you get a lot of "Reexive" Charms.) I suspect the issue you're seeing is that I'm using the "fontenc" package, which sidesteps that problem (but does create a slightly wonky-looking text, yeah).

              Do you know another good way to avoid the "can't copy/paste" issue? It's obviously less of a problem in technical writing, so this is not a problem I've had to address before.
              Last edited by Irked; 02-20-2016, 11:08 AM.


              Homebrew: Lunar Charms for 3e

              Solar Charm Rewrite (Complete) (Now with Charm cards!)

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              • #22
                Update v1.2 - now has a table of contents (whose entries are hyperlinks), bookmarks, and an index (which, sadly, is not hyperlinked right now).

                Edit: Also switched back to the normal font, so, as noted above, it'll look better but copy/paste might get weird.
                Last edited by Irked; 02-19-2016, 04:21 PM.


                Homebrew: Lunar Charms for 3e

                Solar Charm Rewrite (Complete) (Now with Charm cards!)

                Comment


                • #23
                  This is by far the best of such attempts I have seen. Not perfect, but a very nice start. I'd like to also see a version without modified charms, though that might be easiest to do after the final version of the book is released. A few possible issues I saw, having only glanced through random parts:

                  Surprise Anticipation Method: So you removed the retroactive discount? That was the best part.

                  Hail-Shattering Practice: Did you intend to remove the (essence) limit? Doing so makes this charm basically mandatory. Even for characters with Supernal Dodge. What did poor Rumor of Form do to deserve such hate?

                  Reed in the Wind: Should be [Modified], as you completely changed how the cap increase works. This is a pretty huge nerf to Evasion, by the way.

                  Reflex Sidestep Technique: It's not that you can't use Dodge charms in response to an ambush, but rather that you can't use Evasion. Seven Shadow Evasion certainly works, and there are a couple of post-roll Dodge charms that should work as well. The really interesting thing here is that you get to activate Dodge charms after the attack roll, so you'll never have to spend more than you need.

                  It also might be worth clarifying whether specialties necessarily count as part of Evasion's full value.

                  Shadow Over Water: By RAW, surprise (but not ambush) is a penalty. That Dipping Swallow Defense cannot mitigate it appears to be a unique defect not shared by similar charms.

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Irked View Post
                    I was using the default fonts, but this ran into problems when copy-pasting from the resultant PDF - since LaTeX doesn't map character-to-character in its PDF creation, patterns like "fl" tended not to copy-paste correctly every once in a while. (So, for instance, you get a lot of "Reexive" Charms.) I suspect the issue you're seeing is that I'm using the "fotenc" package, which sidesteps that problem (but does create a slightly wonky-looking text, yeah).

                    Do you know another good way to avoid the "can't copy/paste" issue? It's obviously less of a problem in technical writing, so this is not a problem I've had to address before.
                    Huh. Never really thought about that, for pretty much the same reason. I know I've found similar artifacts annoying copying from the Core PDF. It should be possible to turn off the ligatures (The combined characters), and only lose a little bit of aesthetics, possibly some readability, and the good favor of typography snobs the world over.

                    The following snippet should do it, though I'm sure there are other ways.
                    \usepackage{microtype}
                    \DisableLigatures{}




                    You could always provide 2 documents! One for the typographical elite, with ligatures, and another for those who would prefer to dilute their documents into something... lower.

                    Last edited by Primefactorx01; 02-19-2016, 11:13 PM.

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Anasurimbor View Post
                      This is by far the best of such attempts I have seen. Not perfect, but a very nice start. I'd like to also see a version without modified charms, though that might be easiest to do after the final version of the book is released. A few possible issues I saw, having only glanced through random parts:
                      Thanks for the kind words, and for the feedback!

                      Surprise Anticipation Method: So you removed the retroactive discount? That was the best part.
                      "All my Awareness Charms are Indefinite, 0m," was certainly powerful; I'm not certain it was deliberate, and I find the whole, "Man, I hope somebody ambushes me!" thing just too weird.

                      Hail-Shattering Practice: Did you intend to remove the (essence) limit? Doing so makes this charm basically mandatory. Even for characters with Supernal Dodge. What did poor Rumor of Form do to deserve such hate?
                      Whoops, nope, that's just a goof. Thanks!

                      Reed in the Wind: Should be [Modified], as you completely changed how the cap increase works. This is a pretty huge nerf to Evasion, by the way.
                      Does it? Is Reed in the Wind meant to give a permanent boost to your Evasion cap, or is it trying to say that when using RitW, your cap is increased appropriately? It's not, after all, a Permanent Charm...

                      I don't honestly have any idea which was intended; this was a conservative guess. I'll still M-tag it, though.

                      Reflex Sidestep Technique: It's not that you can't use Dodge charms in response to an ambush, but rather that you can't use Evasion.
                      Again, I'm not sure what the last sentence of the canon RST is trying to say; I read it to say that, if ambushed, you couldn't activate any Dodge Charms unless RST restores you to full Evasion. You read it to say, "You can always activate Dodge Charms when ambushed, sure, but now you can wait to activate them when ambushed," instead?

                      (In 2e, certainly, you just straight out couldn't use Dodge Charms when ambushed; that was what made surprise so fatal. I read this sentence to say that that still held true in 3e.)

                      (This was half the impetus for the project in the first place; I'd read sentences like, "If [condition is met], she may apply additional Dodge Charms if necessary," and go, "Okay, wait, what is this trying to say?")

                      Shadow Over Water: By RAW, surprise (but not ambush) is a penalty. That Dipping Swallow Defense cannot mitigate it appears to be a unique defect not shared by similar charms.
                      Hm, you're right. Thanks.


                      Homebrew: Lunar Charms for 3e

                      Solar Charm Rewrite (Complete) (Now with Charm cards!)

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Primefactorx01 View Post

                        Huh. Never really thought about that, for pretty much the same reason. I know I've found similar artifacts annoying copying from the Core PDF. It should be possible to turn off the ligatures (The combined characters), and only lose a little bit of aesthetics, possibly some readability, and the good favor of typography snobs the world over.

                        The following snippet should do it, though I'm sure there are other ways.
                        \usepackage{microtype}
                        \DisableLigatures{}




                        You could always provide 2 documents! One for the typographical elite, with ligatures, and another for those who would prefer to dilute their documents into something... lower.
                        Ooh, that's a much better way of doing it - thanks!

                        ***

                        V1.21 is live, reflecting modifications from the past few posts.


                        Homebrew: Lunar Charms for 3e

                        Solar Charm Rewrite (Complete) (Now with Charm cards!)

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Re: Reed in the Wind, I think your summary of it almost exactly matches the mechanics in the book, EXCEPT that it should just say that (on use) it gives +Essence to your Evasion cap, not +1. This is a pretty finicky difference that I don't think comes up super often? but is a difference.

                          Re: Reflex Sidestep Technique:

                          So normally the way Ambush works is that your Defense (Evasion or Parry) is just completely ignored and you are treated as having 0 Defense. Which means that Dodge charms that buff Evasion do nothing because Evasion is no longer part of the formula. RST restores the applicability of your Dodge, but at a reduced level, and then tells you that you can't buff it with Dodge charms unless the enemy's 1s and 2s restore your Evasion to its natural full value.

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by AtG View Post
                            Re: Reed in the Wind, I think your summary of it almost exactly matches the mechanics in the book, EXCEPT that it should just say that (on use) it gives +Essence to your Evasion cap, not +1. This is a pretty finicky difference that I don't think comes up super often? but is a difference.
                            *nods* My version says (or is meant to say) that each point of Evasion bought via RitW adds +1 to the Evasion cap - so you can still get it to +Essence, but only if you spend at least (2*Essence)i. Strictly as written, I think you could activate canon RitW for 0i, raise the cap by (Essence) for a purely Excellency-based boost, and also count that as a RitW-enhanced dodge for Charms that use that as a reset condition...

                            ... but that seemed kind of dumb, and I strongly suspect "activate RitW for 0i" wasn't the authorial intent.

                            Re: Reflex Sidestep Technique:

                            So normally the way Ambush works is that your Defense (Evasion or Parry) is just completely ignored and you are treated as having 0 Defense. Which means that Dodge charms that buff Evasion do nothing because Evasion is no longer part of the formula. RST restores the applicability of your Dodge, but at a reduced level, and then tells you that you can't buff it with Dodge charms unless the enemy's 1s and 2s restore your Evasion to its natural full value.
                            I think that's how I was reading it, as well, though it's worded better than what I was saying above.
                            Last edited by Irked; 02-20-2016, 01:23 AM.


                            Homebrew: Lunar Charms for 3e

                            Solar Charm Rewrite (Complete) (Now with Charm cards!)

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Irked View Post
                              "All my Awareness Charms are Indefinite, 0m," was certainly powerful; I'm not certain it was deliberate
                              There's certainly no way it was accidental or overlooked. It was literally the first thing I thought of when I read that part of the charm. It's also just the three Keen X Techniques, really.

                              and I find the whole, "Man, I hope somebody ambushes me!" thing just too weird.
                              You gotta get that real-life experience. Go walk around a slum dressed as a lost, helpless noble or something.

                              Does it? Is Reed in the Wind meant to give a permanent boost to your Evasion cap, or is it trying to say that when using RitW, your cap is increased appropriately? It's not, after all, a Permanent Charm...
                              I find it easier to treat that part as effectively permanent (but still perilous.) Still, it's quite possible you have to spend 2i (or 1i) to get the cap increase, but as written that gives you the full +Essence.

                              Originally posted by AtG View Post
                              Re: Reed in the Wind, I think your summary of it almost exactly matches the mechanics in the book, EXCEPT that it should just say that (on use) it gives +Essence to your Evasion cap, not +1. This is a pretty finicky difference that I don't think comes up super often? but is a difference.
                              Try to build a Dodge-based character. It'll come up pretty quickly. It certainly did for me. There's a couple Brawl charms that can cheaply give lots of Evasion under certain circumstances. Or look at Nightingale Style: the form + Hearing the Heart's Song + Battle-Dancer Method puts you at +6 Evasion.

                              Again, I'm not sure what the last sentence of the canon RST is trying to say; I read it to say that, if ambushed, you couldn't activate any Dodge Charms unless RST restores you to full Evasion. You read it to say, "You can always activate Dodge Charms when ambushed, sure, but now you can wait to activate them when ambushed," instead?
                              This:
                              So normally the way Ambush works is that your Defense (Evasion or Parry) is just completely ignored and you are treated as having 0 Defense. Which means that Dodge charms that buff Evasion do nothing because Evasion is no longer part of the formula.
                              Exactly. You can still use charms that don't interact with Evasion, such as Seven Shadow Evasion, Rumor of Form, or Vaporous Division.

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Irked View Post
                                *nods* My version says (or is meant to say) that each point of Evasion bought via RitW adds +1 to the Evasion cap - so you can still get it to +Essence, but only if you spend at least (2*Essence)i. Strictly as written, I think you could activate canon RitW for 0i, raise the cap by (Essence) for a purely Excellency-based boost, and also count that as a RitW-enhanced dodge for Charms that use that as a reset condition...

                                ... but that seemed kind of dumb, and I strongly suspect "activate RitW for 0i" wasn't the authorial intent.
                                I don't think you can activate for 0i, that seems silly, although I'll admit this is not based on any explicit rules reference.

                                Anasurimbor's point about how this effect is not marginal makes me think it is important to leave the charm as it is in the book or mark it modified tag (as you said you'd do).

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