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  • 2e Infernals & 3e Abyssals

    Do you guys think that Abyssals will be able to fashion themselves into custom Deathlords the same way Infernals made themselves into Devil-Tigers? Or would that be too samey?

  • #2
    Maybe, if their relationship really is master and apprentice as stated.

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    • #3
      I doubt it. Doesn't seem like very interesting design territory, anyway, since you can basically become a Deathlord by kicking one off their throne or carving out your own black empire.

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      • #4
        Are you saying that Abyssals should be tied to Deathlords that tightly?

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        • #5
          If an abyssal wants to be an uberghost, they need to kill themselves and become a old powerful uberghost through time and hard work. I'd much rather kick my deathord off it's throne and forge it into the soulsteel crown I wear on my head while I rule it's former domain while I live as a deathknight.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by CoL View Post
            If an abyssal wants to be an uberghost, they need to kill themselves and become a old powerful uberghost through time and hard work. I'd much rather kick my deathord off it's throne and forge it into the soulsteel crown I wear on my head while I rule it's former domain while I live as a deathknight.
            Not necessarily required in this edition, I'd wager. The deathlords might be more about enabling Abyssals in order to make the Underworld more vibrant, to give some greater weight to the passion plays and what would otherwise be empty, endless back and forths of conquest and retreat over the ages.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by CoL View Post
              If an abyssal wants to be an uberghost, they need to kill themselves and become a old powerful uberghost through time and hard work. I'd much rather kick my deathord off it's throne and forge it into the soulsteel crown I wear on my head while I rule it's former domain while I live as a deathknight.
              I don't mean actually BECOMING a Deathlord, but rather creating charms based on your own interpretation of the void's deathly essence.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by The Free Man View Post
                I don't mean actually BECOMING a Deathlord, but rather creating charms based on your own interpretation of the void's deathly essence.
                Wouldn't those just be custom (and possibly esoteric) Abyssal charms?

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                • #9
                  We know that Infernals won't get Devil Tiger in this edition, so I doubt Abyssals will.


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                  • #10
                    I think the idea that Deathlords are some blatently other category of being like some ghetto ghost akuma is probably not going to be something talked about or stated as their nature. Deathlords are still powerful ghosts, but that power likely comes from centuries of building infrastructure and wresting the powers of the Labyrinth to their will.

                    So Abyssals likely can replace them, but it won't be some checklist of metaphysical powers that an Abyssal needs to achieve before they can become some Deathlord like being. It'll be because they master necromancy, found thier own dread empire or kill their boss and take thier shit instead.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by CoL View Post

                      Wouldn't those just be custom (and possibly esoteric) Abyssal charms?
                      I guess, yeah.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by The Free Man View Post
                        Do you guys think that Abyssals will be able to fashion themselves into custom Deathlords the same way Infernals made themselves into Devil-Tigers? Or would that be too samey?
                        It isn't so much that it would be too samey as that "transhumanism" has never really been part of the Abyssal design space.

                        I mean, I'm sure something like that is probably possible. But there likely won't be a lot of support for it. An Abyssal who wants to wield ultimate power over death already has a tool for doing so that surpasses whatever unholy might the Deathlords were imbued with at their inception and managed to acquire over the centuries, and that tool is themselves and their Black Exaltation. In time, the Abyssals will likely surpass their masters.

                        There are reasons for eschewing that, like if you get someone who is really into the whole Oblivion thing and decides that being an Abyssal is still too close to being alive. But like I said, probably not a ton of support there.


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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by The Free Man View Post
                          I don't mean actually BECOMING a Deathlord, but rather creating charms based on your own interpretation of the void's deathly essence.
                          I don't think the way it will play out in the books will be very reminiscent of what is familiar to us from Second Edition, let alone that the Deathlords will be as evident in the Abyssal Charms as some people are assuming they are.

                          I mean, in the backer preview, you have those Presence Charms that feel a lot like they were inspired by the Lover, and yet many of them seem to match up surprisingly closely to the Solar Presence Charms. Even if the preview Charms were provisional, that suggests to me that there's a lot of room to make the whole thing very subtle.

                          Besides, exactly how much room is there to interpret death? It's not a narrow concept to be sure, but I don't think it quite has the latitude that a lot of people drew on for Infernals.

                          Even with all of that in mind, it wouldn't be something I would want. I like a bit of focus in the Exalted, and this seems like the kind of thing that creates or encourages dilution.

                          I also personally dislike any sense that there are so many opportunities to develop the weird that the conventional becomes crowded out and forgotten, and the weird starts to feel either overwrought or desperate. It's like Martial Arts; there are reasons to not want a constant stream of weird, esoteric ones that leave things like being based off an animal buried.


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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Murcushio View Post

                            It isn't so much that it would be too samey as that "transhumanism" has never really been part of the Abyssal design space.
                            How is that transhumanist?

                            Besides, exactly how much room is there to interpret death? It's not a narrow concept to be sure, but I don't think it quite has the latitude that a lot of people drew on for Infernals.
                            Well... Maybe I didn't word that properly. Okay. We have, for example, the vampiric succubus in the Lover, the undead necromancer in the mask, and so on. Each Deathlord covers a different type of "undead overlord". Shouldn't there be room for other types as well? What about... the shepherd? Or the judge?

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by The Free Man View Post
                              How is that transhumanist?


                              Well... Maybe I didn't word that properly. Okay. We have, for example, the vampiric succubus in the Lover, the undead necromancer in the mask, and so on. Each Deathlord covers a different type of "undead overlord". Shouldn't there be room for other types as well? What about... the shepherd? Or the judge?
                              I think the bishop covers those last two...


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