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  • Originally posted by Gonzo View Post
    Apologies if this has been asked already.

    What breaks if I detach "initiative" aquired from withering attacks from the initiative as the order of action?

    In other words, what are the problems of using a static order of actions and let every character build up a "momentum" to unleash their decisives?
    At the least, a dozen or so charms become somewhere between "less useful" to "useless" as their whole thing is adding a set amount of initiative to attempt to get ahead of others. Another dozen or so become weaker or useless because they only trigger (or their stronger effect) triggers by shifting your turn order. But outside of charms, it just removes a lever for players to use which isn't the end of the world. And I can see the appeal of one less thing to track.

    Edit: The Wizard of Oz pointed out another one with Onslaught. That's a fair point as well.
    Last edited by The Unsung Hero; 08-13-2019, 06:07 PM.


    I post Artifacts in this thread. How I make them is in this thread.
    I have made many tools and other things for 3rd Edition. I now host all of my creations on my Google site: The Vault of the Unsung Hero

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    • Originally posted by Gonzo View Post
      Apologies if this has been asked already.

      What breaks if I detach "initiative" aquired from withering attacks from the initiative as the order of action?

      In other words, what are the problems of using a static order of actions and let every character build up a "momentum" to unleash their decisives?
      I'm really unsure of how this would go in a Solar game, where a Solar fighter has a lot of tools to act on everyone's round. It can be messy already, so maybe it wouldn't make things worth.

      One of the good point I think is that it would reduce the time of inactivity of a high initiative player doing a decisive attack. At the moment, when you have a lot of initiative and use a decisive and your initiative is then set to 3, you do not play for the remainder of the round (which is normal), and then you do not play for most of the next round because with 3 initiative you are likely to be the last one playing, making it feels like you didn't play for 2 rounds straight.

      The thing is, I believe the system bas been thought around this : When you use a decisive, you advance towards victory by wounding your ennemies and adding penalties to their actions, but you also open up your defense and become vulnerable because you are low initiative and other people will play before you. I don't know how this would work with a system that do not use initiative for action ordering.

      How would you decide action ordering ? At random ? With dice pools ? From stunts ?

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      • Also I believe The Wizard of Oz and Unsung Heroes confused Overwhelming with Onslaught but I'm not sure

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        • Yeah, you're right I did. Thanks for pointing that out, I've edited it.


          Avatar by Jen.
          My Exalted characters:
          Dr Soma Vaidya, viper-totem Lunar and kung-fu doctor
          Brother Alazar, Zenith occultist and last survivor of the Black Monastery of Leng

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          • Originally posted by Chausse View Post
            Also I believe The Wizard of Oz and Unsung Heroes confused Overwhelming with Onslaught but I'm not sure
            Originally posted by The Wizard of Oz View Post
            Yeah, you're right I did. Thanks for pointing that out, I've edited it.
            What? I had it right the whole time! You can't prove otherwise... >_>


            I post Artifacts in this thread. How I make them is in this thread.
            I have made many tools and other things for 3rd Edition. I now host all of my creations on my Google site: The Vault of the Unsung Hero

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            • You also lose out on Clashes. The strategy of timing your Decisive Attacks etc.


              Raksha are my fae-vorite.

              Reincarnation of magnificentmomo.

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              • What breaks if you allow Sorcery to affect Exaltations. Like say Solar Allfather binds a Dawn Caste Exaltation of his Son to an Artifact Hammer that can only be lifted by the Worthy, as well as binding the memories of his son to the Exaltation.

                Or a Sorcerer binding their Exaltation to a World they Created so it will reincarnate in a line of Witches. Or Binding a Dawn, Twilight, and Zenith together to reincarnate with each other, and maybe bound to the reincarnations of their hosts souls, as well as binding Three Goddesses to steward the Exaltations themselves?

                Or binding a Solar Exaltation to act as a Sun for a World, or as a mystical Eternal Flame in whose embers rests the souls of Lords.

                Or the biggest Sacred Cow, what about Splitting an Exaltation so maybe diminishing it to create squire Exaltations, or shattering it into a host of weaker Exaltations.


                It is a time for great deeds!

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                • Originally posted by Eldagusto View Post
                  What breaks if you allow Sorcery to affect Exaltations. Like say Solar Allfather binds a Dawn Caste Exaltation of his Son to an Artifact Hammer that can only be lifted by the Worthy, as well as binding the memories of his son to the Exaltation.

                  Or a Sorcerer binding their Exaltation to a World they Created so it will reincarnate in a line of Witches. Or Binding a Dawn, Twilight, and Zenith together to reincarnate with each other, and maybe bound to the reincarnations of their hosts souls, as well as binding Three Goddesses to steward the Exaltations themselves?

                  Or binding a Solar Exaltation to act as a Sun for a World, or as a mystical Eternal Flame in whose embers rests the souls of Lords.

                  Or the biggest Sacred Cow, what about Splitting an Exaltation so maybe diminishing it to create squire Exaltations, or shattering it into a host of weaker Exaltations.

                  Mechanically? nothing. Storywise? just chuck the whole system into the bin.

                  There are only a few iron-clad rules in Exalted: Death is permanent, Time Travel is forbidden, Exaltations are un-fuckwith-able. The Jade Prison was a MASSIVE endeavor and the best that they could do with it was merely catch the Exaltations of the Solars and hold them in a box. And then the box broke.

                  So you start with the Mjolnir thing- ok. thats interesting. it kinda fits the theme of getting power via worth. Then since screwing with exaltations is possible (Jade Prison aside) you move on to the Dawn Twilight Zenith thing, well now you have a destined trio. Ok, not really game breaking, but it means that Exaltations can definitely be bound down to certain rules and laws. Make one into a Sun? Sure. you've already established that they can be tied down by sorcery- if they can be tied to each other, why not to a Sun? you already tied one to a Hammer. Never mind that it makes the idea of solar exaltations totally useless because they've been demoted to Divine Batteries.

                  Split one? turn the setting's single, defining characteristic into a mere commodity to be rationed out? Sure! why not. Nothing matters anymore anyway. They can be split. Mask of Winters, Bishop, Her Redness, every last first age Twilight, Ketchup, Ma-ha-suchi, several Fae Nobles, and the Yozi themselves have all totally not noticed this is possible or they absolutely would have done it 5 MILLENIA AGO when that would have been extremly goddamn useful. No problem! Now that the cat is out of the bag, there are probably a handful of "pure" solars left. Because the running theme of Exalted isn't the power, it isnt the daiklaves, the DBs, the Realm, the concept of Exaltations themselves, or anything like that: the Theme of Exalted is Mistakes Can Not Be Undone. So you can't put the cat back in the bag, can't unring the bell. Bad guys win, good guys lose. You start up a game of Vampire The Masquerade or whatever because that's where everything devolves into.

                  So Everything. Everything Breaks if you let Solar Exaltations be screwed with.


                  ..."But I've bought a big bat, I'm all ready you see. Now my troubles are going to have troubles with me"

                  Message me for Japanese translations.

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                  • Originally posted by Sorcerous Overlord View Post


                    Mechanically? nothing. Storywise? just chuck the whole system into the bin.

                    There are only a few iron-clad rules in Exalted: Death is permanent, Time Travel is forbidden, Exaltations are un-fuckwith-able. The Jade Prison was a MASSIVE endeavor and the best that they could do with it was merely catch the Exaltations of the Solars and hold them in a box. And then the box broke.

                    So you start with the Mjolnir thing- ok. thats interesting. it kinda fits the theme of getting power via worth. Then since screwing with exaltations is possible (Jade Prison aside) you move on to the Dawn Twilight Zenith thing, well now you have a destined trio. Ok, not really game breaking, but it means that Exaltations can definitely be bound down to certain rules and laws. Make one into a Sun? Sure. you've already established that they can be tied down by sorcery- if they can be tied to each other, why not to a Sun? you already tied one to a Hammer. Never mind that it makes the idea of solar exaltations totally useless because they've been demoted to Divine Batteries.

                    Split one? turn the setting's single, defining characteristic into a mere commodity to be rationed out? Sure! why not. Nothing matters anymore anyway. They can be split. Mask of Winters, Bishop, Her Redness, every last first age Twilight, Ketchup, Ma-ha-suchi, several Fae Nobles, and the Yozi themselves have all totally not noticed this is possible or they absolutely would have done it 5 MILLENIA AGO when that would have been extremly goddamn useful. No problem! Now that the cat is out of the bag, there are probably a handful of "pure" solars left. Because the running theme of Exalted isn't the power, it isnt the daiklaves, the DBs, the Realm, the concept of Exaltations themselves, or anything like that: the Theme of Exalted is Mistakes Can Not Be Undone. So you can't put the cat back in the bag, can't unring the bell. Bad guys win, good guys lose. You start up a game of Vampire The Masquerade or whatever because that's where everything devolves into.

                    So Everything. Everything Breaks if you let Solar Exaltations be screwed with.
                    Wow methinks I touched a nerve.
                    Cept you are not putting it in a book you are doing it in one game.

                    By your reasoning we shouldn't have Abyssals or Infernals? Especially since it took over 5k years to achieve them so they shouldn't exist?

                    And binding Exaltations could be curses or whims of the Exalted themselves. And if say you bound one into a Sun you could still in theory pluck it out.

                    Just because you can do something doesn't mean it would be easy, even if you could destroy Exaltations I don't think the Sidereals would have the resources to do it.

                    I don't mind even if in the Primordial War a handful of Exalted were permanently lost, either pushed outside the Universe or obliterated with the Deathnell of a Primordials or Primordial Warmachine.

                    And the split Idea is basically me just thinking about the Imbued and how the Solars could have been broken because they were too mighty.

                    And the fact that you can't undo it is the point... And why would Ma-ha-suchi want to split Exaltations I don't follow you.


                    It is a time for great deeds!

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                    • Originally posted by Eldagusto View Post

                      Wow methinks I touched a nerve.
                      Cept you are not putting it in a book you are doing it in one game.

                      By your reasoning we shouldn't have Abyssals or Infernals? Especially since it took over 5k years to achieve them so they shouldn't exist?

                      And binding Exaltations could be curses or whims of the Exalted themselves. And if say you bound one into a Sun you could still in theory pluck it out.

                      Just because you can do something doesn't mean it would be easy, even if you could destroy Exaltations I don't think the Sidereals would have the resources to do it.

                      I don't mind even if in the Primordial War a handful of Exalted were permanently lost, either pushed outside the Universe or obliterated with the Deathnell of a Primordials or Primordial Warmachine.

                      And the split Idea is basically me just thinking about the Imbued and how the Solars could have been broken because they were too mighty.

                      And the fact that you can't undo it is the point... And why would Ma-ha-suchi want to split Exaltations I don't follow you.
                      Because he hates the Solars?

                      Because Abyssals and Infernals still have a solar exaltation, only that they're slightly shifted? The Exaltations aren't split or broken. They're re-orientated. Like how you can change the configuration of a program or machine, but you yourself can't damage it. You can use the exaltation as a source of metaphysical and essence power, but you can't change it at its core. That is, Excellence and Perfection conceptualised.

                      And you have to ask yourself. The Primordials, at the base, are all-surpassingly, all-consumingly good at anything they turn their minds to. So powerful that multiple exalts, over the generations, each of them a hero that can make entire armies quake in their boots, had to die continuously to even kill several of them. And you want to give them a way to split apart and weaken the powers of their core enemies? Then questions will have to be asked, like 'Why didn't the Makers of the Universe, the ones who invented the concepts of Dance, Distance, Linear time, and Spatial relationships, not do this to the beings that were killing them?' The Answer would nominally be 'Because the Exaltations were indestructible. If the Mouth of Oblivion was to consume all, there would still be 1,000 exaltations, floating around the mouth of the void like a thousand shining stars, waiting for one more hero to grant power to.

                      Yes, a handful of Exalted can be permanently lost. Maybe. But it costs a primordial to blow them up. They're not something to be destroyed so cheaply by something like Sorcery

                      As for how 'not being able to undo it is the point'. Well, that's cause you got your wires crossed. The mistake isn't splitting the Exaltation. Its creating the Exaltation at all.

                      The Exaltations are miracles, superweapons capable of binding to a normal human and granting him immense power at a base, Your baseline exalted with excellencies alone can outfight, out talk, and outsmart 90% of everyone he meets. And he gets stronger. Again and again. The Theme of Solars is Excel Beyond all limits. They keep on getting stronger and stronger and stronger. Give him a gun, and he'll soon be sniping with the rest of them, then start evolving to using pistols to blow up tanks and take down satellites. Give him a computer, and he'll take over the world, smashing apart firewalls and backdoors like it was nothing. Give him a scalpel and a booklet on medicine, and he'll be curing cancer with his bare hands. There is no guaranteed way to keep yourself safe from an Exalted.

                      The Solars/ Exalted had shaping defenses, Perfect Defenses, and Ghost Eating Technique. They were weapons that were aimed to murder the creators of reality, and they succeeded. After the war, the Unconquered Sun and the Incarna gifted them Creation... because they realized that at this point, the Exalted Host can murder the gods, topple their thrones, and take the Games of Divinity for themselves. Autochthon find himself fucked over, first by being forced to cripple his chosen race, then he fled to another dimension for fear of his life.

                      The Primary Theme of Exalted is 'mistakes cannot be undone'. And the Exaltations were one of the biggest mistakes of them all.

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                      • I feel that saying Exaltations were one of the biggest mistakes of them all, is needlessly trying to subvert expectations, they are what they are. The Primordial War brought peace to humanity but they committed Genocide unseen in Creation even with the Great Contagion Balorian Crusade.

                        I didn't say you destroy Exaltations with Sorcery.

                        I did say maybe use Sorcerous Workings to tamper with them, or even artifacts as that is what Monstrances are.

                        And I do feel it would be poignant if a handful of immortal Exaltations were lost in the War.

                        And its silly and lacks gravity if there was no way for Exalted to be beaten and permanently lost. I feel they probably almost lost lost of times, like things where the Primordials almost wiped out humanity a few times with a disease or a dance.

                        I just believe it wasn't easy to destroy Exaltations. The immutable rules are no time travel and no resurrection, not Exaltations can not be messed with at all, unless for some reason you want to invert them to be Abyssal or corrupt them to Infernal essence.

                        We already had methods to bottle the genie back up, the Jade Prison, and Lytek's Cabinet and other artifacts. They are just expensive and well guarded and flawed.


                        It is a time for great deeds!

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                        • logic dictates if you can either destroy exaltations or alter them permanently with sorcery, then it must mean that the reverse is true too, which can flip the balance of power quite badly. A can of worms best not to get into.

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                          • What Breaks if you allow players to roll initiative with their fighting abilities instead of Awareness ?

                            Here is my analysis : Most players I play with take awareness to be good in fight, and as a bonus they are also good at seeing stuff.

                            The problem I have with it is multi-layered :
                            First, it makes one ability a go-to for everyone. Some characters can afford not to do this way (Stealth Solar, for example). I don't really like the "Everyone got to have exactly this thing to fight good", and since initiative is extremely important in fight, people take it.

                            Second, it makes using stealth and larcin NPC extremely hard, because of the first point. Since everyone takes a lot in awareness, your better-than-average stealth guy never stands a chance because the Dawn + whatever 1 or 2 good fighting guys are here with almost maximum stats in Awareness.

                            So I'm wondering if I can propose to players to roll with Wits + Whatever combat ability for Join Battle, as an alternative. My hope is that players who want to go for extremely perceptive characters will still go for Awareness, and they still can roll Awareness + Wits for Join Battle, and other combat oriented characters will stop spending too much points on things they have no interest in, and also improve the opportunities of NPCs (or even PCs, because if you are not a Night Supernal Stealth or Larcin GL hiding stuff from your party when they all throw 16-20 dices to spot things) to do fun shady things.

                            Concerning Charms that specifically interact with Join Battle, like Awakening Eye (Exalted 3e core), I'mthinking about making it bridge from other combat abilities at a slightly higher cost in Charm pre-requisite, so fighters who want especially high initiative can do it. This or just tell them to buy Awareness Charms.

                            Also I'm aware Awareness (ahah) has double 9, reroll 6 and so on, while most fighting abilities do not. I think mostly it's not a bother to me, except if you find some strange case where it would lead to a 10 initiative difference on average.

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                            • I don't think anything breaks per se, but since Join Battle replacers tend to be Charm effects, I would put that effect in custom Charms to stay consistent. Like you make a custom Charm for each of Archery, Brawl, Melee and Thrown that lets the user Join Battle with that Ability. You could add some bonus effects depending on the Ability, the same way Stealth gets a Stealth attempt (i.e. ranged abilities get a free Aim action or something like that), that way the alternate Join Battle Charms could remain appealing even though Awareness would still have the highest possible number of successes.
                              Last edited by Epitome; 08-22-2019, 08:34 AM.

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                              • Tbh, I don't think it'd make a huge difference. It'd just make combat characters a bit more focused. That's not something I want, but others might.

                                Personally, I like combatants having to buy more than just Melee. Melee makes attacks and defends. If you've got Melee 5, that's 90% of the rolls you need to make in combat. But you still need Dodge to disengage (as I discovered when my elite swordsman got stuck fighting some mortal guards and couldn't get through to the Dawn he was trying to ambush), Awareness to spot ambushes and get the drop on your enemies, Resistance against poison, Integrity against fear, Athletics or Ride to chase fleeing) enemies (or horse archers and skirmishers), War to coordinate your allies, etc. So you can't just be Sword McSword, Exalt of Swords. You have to bring in other things.

                                And let's not forget that Melee and Awareness (and Resistance and Socialise and Bureaucracy and Sail) cost exactly the same; ie the game's designers think they're equally good, and the character system treats them as if they're equal choices. But judging from the number of characters with Melee 5 vs the number of characters with Linguistics 5, I'd say players don't value them equally, they consider Melee and Brawl an incredibly good value choice (Thrown and Archery not so much, since they don't give you Parry or defensive charms. Martial Arts is in the middle, it gives you Parry but it does cost more).

                                And by bringing in other abilities to combat, it also means that the characters who've gone for other things can feel like they have a "thing" in combat. Sure, the professional thief with amazing awareness of his surroundings, so he never gets caught, may not have the same offensive capability as the Dawn overall, but at least she's got good Initiative. Similarly to how the Zenith ascetic also doesn't have much in the way of offensive capibility, but if you're fighting an enemy who relies on poison, his enormous Resistance will impress everyone as he shrugs off venoms and toxins like they're nothing.

                                On the other hand, it can actually also help differentiate the combat characters in more ways than just their Melee or Brawl score.

                                We recently did a big fight in my essence 1 Lunars game, and it turned out several of the non-combat characters had appalling initiative. The Full Moon had great initiative. Was that because he had a high combat rating? No, actually the Changing Moon is a skilled archer, the Casteless merchant an excellent swordsman, the Tarzan-expy is amazing at ape-wrestling and slamming enemies with his giant ape fists.
                                But the Full Moon, as well as having an amazing combat pool, has an amazing Join Battle as well. While the Changing Moon archer was rolling her 2 or 3 dice for Join Battle, he was rolling 13 dice.

                                It's really easy to get a combat ability at 5 at character creation. But your Dawns, etc, shine because they've invested in Melee and Awareness and Athletics and Resistance.
                                (Though if you want to reduce the difference in skill between combat characters and non-combat characters, you may not want that.)


                                I'll point out that there are a few charms that change Join Battle calculations; Solar Stealth lets you roll Dex+Stealth for JB, Lunar Perception lets you roll Per+Awareness. But no charm lets you swap

                                As a final point, I'll point out that way surprise attacks work.

                                Many people find ambushes in Exalted 3e really weird. They're quite unintuitive. There's no surprise round like in most games. First, you get to the range you want undetected. Then you announce that you're attacking... and make opposed Join Battle. If you win, you make a surprise attack, if you lose, you don't.

                                But from the defenders perspective, it does make some sense; if they roll well on Wits+Awareness, they detect the ambush, if they don't, then they don't. If they're rolling Wits+Brawl... well how does Brawl help them detect a sniper?


                                Overall, I don't think it's a great idea... but I don't think it'll break much, tbh.


                                Avatar by Jen.
                                My Exalted characters:
                                Dr Soma Vaidya, viper-totem Lunar and kung-fu doctor
                                Brother Alazar, Zenith occultist and last survivor of the Black Monastery of Leng

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