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  • Originally posted by The Hug Ninja View Post
    Potentially returning to the problems that Dawn Castes had in previous editions, where if their player wasn't a combat monkey it was easy to be overshadowed by concepts such as Night Caste assassins and Zenith Caste warrior priests.
    Does it really though ? With the Caste Abilities I think any Dawn can be as interesting as any other Caste character without being a fighting minimaxer.


    My homebrew (Leave comments if you want to help improve) : A quick recap of all the pools and stats for Quick Exalted 3E characters

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    • Originally posted by Chausse View Post

      Does it really though ? With the Caste Abilities I think any Dawn can be as interesting as any other Caste character without being a fighting minimaxer.
      It's more that if someone else minmaxes well then the Dawn Caste's fighting ability can feel like an informed attribute. If the Night is an equally talented sword fighter but they can also ninja vanish and backstab people then the Dawn player might feel that their character sucks.


      success is the ability to go from one failure to the next without any loss of enthusiasm

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      • Originally posted by Chausse View Post

        Does it really though ? With the Caste Abilities I think any Dawn can be as interesting as any other Caste character without being a fighting minimaxer.
        It absolutely does. Note that "overshadowed" and "not interesting" are completely different things.
        Even something as simple as the Dawn taking not-Melee while the Night takes Melee at a bit higher investment is all you need for the Dawn to be second-string in their own field of expertise.
        One big problem is that the quantity of Caste Abilities and Favored Abilities are equal, so you can have two completely identical Ability/Charm listings. There's absolutely no niche protection aside from Supernal. And combat is something many characters invest into, making it very prone to nichebumping.
        Or if you meant Anima Banner abilities, those vary wildly. In a campaign about fighting CoDs and strongarming people, the Zenith outfights the Dawn and the Dawn outsocials the Zenith!

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        • Originally posted by vwllss trnt prncss View Post

          It absolutely does. Note that "overshadowed" and "not interesting" are completely different things.
          Even something as simple as the Dawn taking not-Melee while the Night takes Melee at a bit higher investment is all you need for the Dawn to be second-string in their own field of expertise.
          One big problem is that the quantity of Caste Abilities and Favored Abilities are equal, so you can have two completely identical Ability/Charm listings. There's absolutely no niche protection aside from Supernal. And combat is something many characters invest into, making it very prone to nichebumping.
          Or if you meant Anima Banner abilities, those vary wildly. In a campaign about fighting CoDs and strongarming people, the Zenith outfights the Dawn and the Dawn outsocials the Zenith!
          Does it really, though? Ditching the Supernal-Caste association breaks the stereotypical roles even more than Favored Abilities do, but that's not necessarily a bad thing-- it just means that you're good at the things you want to be good at.

          (Though you might have to be careful of Anima Banner abilities, as you note)

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          • Originally posted by The Hug Ninja View Post
            It's more that if someone else minmaxes well then the Dawn Caste's fighting ability can feel like an informed attribute. If the Night is an equally talented sword fighter but they can also ninja vanish and backstab people then the Dawn player might feel that their character sucks.
            As Grod_the_giant noted, when Supernals are gone, the Dawn can go on the field of other Castes and do stuff, because they are only Solar 1 Excellent at these things.

            The only specific Caste ability that seem so overwhelming to me that nothing can replace it from another Caste point of view and be core to a character concept would be the Night Caste ability to not flare when spending motes. The rest, while cool, never happened to be "indispensable" to a character concept. They happened to be cool, but never indispensable.

            vwllss trnt prncss I guess the repartition of Caste abilities plays a little bit against the Dawn, but I find Exalted characters are more easily overshadowed by other characters because other characters are more ambitious (and their players are more say "expensive") than their direct "set of skills"


            My homebrew (Leave comments if you want to help improve) : A quick recap of all the pools and stats for Quick Exalted 3E characters

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            • Fine if everyone's equally aware of what the Solar charmset can do, I used the Night Caste as an example because Blinding Battle Feint is a formidable join battle charm in the Steath tree.

              Yes, the Dawn Caste could get it if they really want it but that's where the expectation on the player to make their character "properly" increases.


              success is the ability to go from one failure to the next without any loss of enthusiasm

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              • It kinda feels like a crutch though if you have to keep a splat-wide effect to fix a Caste-specific issue. As an alternative, Dawns could simply have a Caste Power that considers them 1 Essence higher when buying Charms from the 5 Combat abilities (Archery, Brawl, Martial Arts, Melee, Thrown), that would be sufficient to solve the "Dawns aren't the most fighty" issue.

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                • If supernals are gone then Dawn are even worse because Twilights have snap on Instant Armor. It cripples Dawn to not control the fighting part of the game.


                  ..."But I've bought a big bat, I'm all ready you see. Now my troubles are going to have troubles with me"

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                  • Originally posted by Chausse View Post

                    As Grod_the_giant noted, when Supernals are gone, the Dawn can go on the field of other Castes and do stuff, because they are only Solar 1 Excellent at these things.

                    The only specific Caste ability that seem so overwhelming to me that nothing can replace it from another Caste point of view and be core to a character concept would be the Night Caste ability to not flare when spending motes. The rest, while cool, never happened to be "indispensable" to a character concept. They happened to be cool, but never indispensable.

                    vwllss trnt prncss I guess the repartition of Caste abilities plays a little bit against the Dawn, but I find Exalted characters are more easily overshadowed by other characters because other characters are more ambitious (and their players are more say "expensive") than their direct "set of skills"

                    To me, definitely the most powerful (and flavourful) are Eclipse abilities..Diplomatic immunity and sanctifying oaths seem both examples of something that could be high-Essence charms. They are applicable in so many circumstances and guarantee that you essentially always get a chance to try getting things done in a diplomatic way.

                    I donl't think there is particular risk of overshadowing Dawns in 3rd edition to be honest. Their caste abilities are solid and, contrary to the second edition, there is no particular reason not to choose Dawn if you want to focus on martial prowess. If you remove Supernal, it is not an overwhelming advantage, but they are still the best in fighting. So whoever wants to focus on combat, will probably choose Dawn anyway.
                    Last edited by Lanic; 01-17-2020, 07:05 PM.

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                    • Honestly the issue I have with the ideal so far is as I've mentioned before it is a pretty massive hit to their power and there doesn't seem to be any replacing major power for the solar's for it's loss save for some. There is a reason I compared it to Lunar's losing their shape shifting powers. Considering it's easy flight,water-breathing, disguises, and even combat, it's pretty comparable in the 'destroys early stories.

                      Grod has suggested one replacement that isn't too bad, and I think it would mostly work as either "Essence is treated as two higher for the supernal ability in every way." or at least "All Caste abilities are treated as one essence higher.

                      The other reason I'm against the ideal is that Supernal is a very FUN mechanic for Solar's since it gives players the ability to go into the very interesting and fun charms. They may go for overwhelming ability or they may like me want to grab an early utility charm that expresses the character's desires. I find that the disappointment that the other splats didn't also get supernal rather telling when WFHW came out rather telling.

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                      • Originally posted by Grod_the_giant View Post
                        Does it really, though? Ditching the Supernal-Caste association breaks the stereotypical roles even more than Favored Abilities do, but that's not necessarily a bad thing-- it just means that you're good at the things you want to be good at.

                        (Though you might have to be careful of Anima Banner abilities, as you note)
                        Yes, it absolutely does.
                        It is very easy for differences in Charm choice to de-Dawn the Dawn. And when you take away Supernal, all that's really diversifying characters is Charm choice.
                        Danny Dawn throws 6 picks into combat and diversifies into other people's niches, Nancy Night goes all-in assassin with 9 combat Charms. Whoops, Nancy's deadlier than Danny. Or whoops, Nancy picked good charms while Danny didn't. Or whoops, Danny picked a diverse spread of combat charms while Nancy went for a focused set of combat charms.
                        I'm not even theorycrafting here, that last one happened in my game despite the Dawn being Melee Supernal. Both the Zenith and the Night were better fighters than the Dawn because the Dawn's 14 combat Charms had near-zero synergy. This wasn't a problem in my game solely because the Dawn's player has uh, zero mechanical awareness to put it tactfully, and didn't ever realize that his character was underperforming.

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                        • I'm kinda bothered by this discussion because when I wanted to propose this houserule for my future games it was really not oriented towards the Dawn that go full fight (in my games there are fights but most players don't care to have 25 insta kill Charms shenanigans so they don't go there) but rather to avoid the 10 starting bureaucracy/craft/performance/presence/whatever Charms of the usual Zenith/Twilight/Eclipse that usually put them way ahead of the Dawn in the story (and also make the campaign kinda monomaniac, "when all you have is a hammer everything looks like a nail"), yet everyone keeps talking about the "poor Dawn" while I never had any issue with a Dawn that was behind in any fight.

                          I'm just looking for more versatile character and was wondering if removing (or reducing) supernal was a good alternative.
                          Last edited by Chausse; 01-17-2020, 09:22 PM.


                          My homebrew (Leave comments if you want to help improve) : A quick recap of all the pools and stats for Quick Exalted 3E characters

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                          • There's nothing in the Solar Charmset that relies on an expectation that characters will have a Supernal. So no, removing Supernal doesn't break anything mechanically.

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                            • Originally posted by Chausse View Post
                              I'm just looking for more versatile character and was wondering if removing (or reducing) supernal was a good alternative.
                              Supernal allows starting characters to have a "niche" ability so even if mechanically it breaks nothing it brings back the 2e spectre of imbalanced castes.


                              I express my opinions, but YSMV; Your Stories May Vary.

                              Formerly known as wyrmpuff

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                              • Originally posted by Chausse View Post
                                I'm kinda bothered by this discussion because when I wanted to propose this houserule for my future games it was really not oriented towards the Dawn that go full fight (in my games there are fights but most players don't care to have 25 insta kill Charms shenanigans so they don't go there) but rather to avoid the 10 starting bureaucracy/craft/performance/presence/whatever Charms of the usual Zenith/Twilight/Eclipse that usually put them way ahead of the Dawn in the story (and also make the campaign kinda monomaniac, "when all you have is a hammer everything looks like a nail"), yet everyone keeps talking about the "poor Dawn" while I never had any issue with a Dawn that was behind in any fight.

                                I'm just looking for more versatile character and was wondering if removing (or reducing) supernal was a good alternative.
                                The Dawn is just a good example, since it really stands out when fighty-man is less fighty than sneaky-man or talky-man. The general point is pretty universally applicable to any Ability or theater of conflict. Danny Dawn buying 6 Presence charms and leveraging their Anima scary-di[c]e can cause the same issue if Zoey Zenith went for Double-9s with all the social Abilities.
                                If everyone in your group knows what they're doing and communicates well during chargen to make sure no niches are infringed upon (or nobody cares about niche protection), not having Supernal should work fine. Heck, better than baseline from a GM perspective since you don't have to plan around E3-5 Charms.

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