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  • Chausse What I will write is borderline trivial, but keep in mind that what is a reasonable rule in rpg game is extremely group-dependent. I would houserule things one way or another depending on who I'm playing with (even before taking into considerations whether group is ok with the houserules).

    So, speaking from practical experience: in my group, nerfing supernal went just fine. We are very happy with the houserule, it was a good decision, and getting access to Essence 3 charms was an extremely satisfying moment for players. So this nerf is not broken in the sense that the game has perfect chance to remain absolutely functional and it did in my case.

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    • Originally posted by Chausse View Post
      I'm kinda bothered by this discussion because when I wanted to propose this houserule for my future games it was really not oriented towards the Dawn that go full fight (in my games there are fights but most players don't care to have 25 insta kill Charms shenanigans so they don't go there) but rather to avoid the 10 starting bureaucracy/craft/performance/presence/whatever Charms of the usual Zenith/Twilight/Eclipse that usually put them way ahead of the Dawn in the story (and also make the campaign kinda monomaniac, "when all you have is a hammer everything looks like a nail"), yet everyone keeps talking about the "poor Dawn" while I never had any issue with a Dawn that was behind in any fight.
      Sorry you feel that way. We're only capable of speaking in general terms and saying what could go wrong or drawing from our experiences of game groups that could be very different to yours.

      Ultimately, you know your group better than we know your group.


      success is the ability to go from one failure to the next without any loss of enthusiasm

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      • Originally posted by vwllss trnt prncss View Post

        Yes, it absolutely does.
        It is very easy for differences in Charm choice to de-Dawn the Dawn. And when you take away Supernal, all that's really diversifying characters is Charm choice.
        Danny Dawn throws 6 picks into combat and diversifies into other people's niches, Nancy Night goes all-in assassin with 9 combat Charms. Whoops, Nancy's deadlier than Danny. Or whoops, Nancy picked good charms while Danny didn't. Or whoops, Danny picked a diverse spread of combat charms while Nancy went for a focused set of combat charms.
        I'm not even theorycrafting here, that last one happened in my game despite the Dawn being Melee Supernal. Both the Zenith and the Night were better fighters than the Dawn because the Dawn's 14 combat Charms had near-zero synergy. This wasn't a problem in my game solely because the Dawn's player has uh, zero mechanical awareness to put it tactfully, and didn't ever realize that his character was underperforming.
        Yes, it means that the Dawn isn't the best fighter, the guy who took the most combat Charms is. It demotes Caste from being a vague analogue for classes to more of a minor role, from being a reflection of in-universe role (Dawns are fighters, Nights are thieves, etc) to more of a personality based thing (Dawns are direct and in-your-face, Nights are about subtlety, etc). I don't think that's a bad thing.

        (And saying "all that's really diversifying characters is Charm choice" is like saying "all that's diversifying D&D characters is class choice." Of course Charm choice is what diversifies characters; it's the mechanical meat and potatoes of your character)
        Last edited by Grod_the_giant; 01-18-2020, 08:41 AM.

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        • Originally posted by The Hug Ninja View Post
          Sorry you feel that way. We're only capable of speaking in general terms and saying what could go wrong or drawing from our experiences of game groups that could be very different to yours.

          Ultimately, you know your group better than we know your group.
          Sorry I din't mean to be rude or prevent your discussion, it just wasn't really answering my point, and going actually very far from my experiences at a table.


          My homebrew (Leave comments if you want to help improve) : A quick recap of all the pools and stats for Quick Exalted 3E characters

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          • No offence taken. Good luck with whatever you decide to go for.


            success is the ability to go from one failure to the next without any loss of enthusiasm

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            • Originally posted by Lanic View Post


              To me, definitely the most powerful (and flavourful) are Eclipse abilities..Diplomatic immunity and sanctifying oaths seem both examples of something that could be high-Essence charms. They are applicable in so many circumstances and guarantee that you essentially always get a chance to try getting things done in a diplomatic way.
              What I meant by my post is that the night power to not flare anima is very core to the "I'm a shadow unseen", because it allows you to act discreetly where no other Caste could, literally because of their anima and the cost of Charms.

              Other powers, like the Twilight ones, are totally awesome, but not mandatory to play a diplomat. You can still try to convince ennemies to enforce their pacts and to not attack you with your Charms, excellencies, RP and merits. A non-Night Solar literally cannot use many abilities if he is on a stealth mission because his stealth will break. That's what I meant by "The power is totally core to the concept".


              My homebrew (Leave comments if you want to help improve) : A quick recap of all the pools and stats for Quick Exalted 3E characters

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Grod_the_giant View Post
                Yes, it means that the Dawn isn't the best fighter, the guy who took the most combat Charms is.
                Thats untrue, the best fighter is the guy whose combat charms support each other. The different abilities do not support each other equally.


                success is the ability to go from one failure to the next without any loss of enthusiasm

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                • Best fighter doesn't necessarily make sense ? What do you mesure it with ? The ability to 1v1 ? To 1vBattle Group ? To 1vMore people ? Damage output per round ? Highest burst on first turns ? Defensive power ? I think it's better to think of Exalted characters as complementary in fights, even though some people will try to build characters that are the best in every situations
                  Last edited by Chausse; 01-19-2020, 03:03 PM.


                  My homebrew (Leave comments if you want to help improve) : A quick recap of all the pools and stats for Quick Exalted 3E characters

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Chausse View Post
                    What I meant by my post is that the night power to not flare anima is very core to the "I'm a shadow unseen", because it allows you to act discreetly where no other Caste could, literally because of their anima and the cost of Charms.
                    Many of the Charms available are Mute, though - you can absolutely play a sneaky Zenith. Hell, I'm playing a sneaky Eclipse right now; I don't think Knight Raiton's anima has ever flared in a scene where he didn't want it to.

                    Also, Sun-Swallowing Practice is a thing.

                    Originally posted by Chausse View Post
                    Other powers, like the Twilight ones, are totally awesome, but not mandatory to play a diplomat.
                    Assuming you mean Eclipse here.

                    Originally posted by Chausse View Post
                    You can still try to convince ennemies to enforce their pacts and to not attack you with your Charms, excellencies, RP and merits.
                    This sounds a lot like Special Pleading to me.

                    Why can I not "still try to remain unseen through my Charms, Excellencies, clever stunts, and Merits?"

                    Originally posted by Chausse View Post
                    A non-Night Solar literally cannot use many abilities if he is on a stealth mission because his stealth will break.
                    And again, my Eclipse has done fine with stealth.
                    Last edited by TheCountAlucard; 01-19-2020, 03:23 PM.

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                    • I started typing an answer and then realized I was wrong, so mea culpa.


                      My homebrew (Leave comments if you want to help improve) : A quick recap of all the pools and stats for Quick Exalted 3E characters

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Chausse View Post
                        Best fighter doesn't necessarily make sense ? What do you mesure it with ? The ability to 1v1 ? To 1vBattle Group ? To 1vMore people ? Damage output per round ? Highest burst on first turns ? Defensive power ? I think it's better to think of Exalted characters as complementary in fights, even though some people will try to build characters that are the best in every situations
                        For the purpose of my answer any of those work, charms supporting each other to achieve an outcome is kinda system bedrock.


                        success is the ability to go from one failure to the next without any loss of enthusiasm

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by The Hug Ninja View Post
                          Thats untrue, the best fighter is the guy whose combat charms support each other. The different abilities do not support each other equally.
                          Okay, yes, technically the "best X" will be the character who invested most heavily and most intelligently in Charms, Merits, Abilities, Attributes, Specialties, and Artifacts related to thing X, such that all parts of the build work together in support of accomplishing thing X. Better?

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                          • I kinda want to come back to the idea of separating soak and the damage roll, because I'm trying to speed up combat and I feel like the current system is a both a source of confusion for my players and a cumbersome bit of mental math (base damage + threshold successes - soak is a bunch to keep track of when the numbers are constantly changing). "I get 6 successes," "okay, that's +2 damage from threshold, -8 from soak," "so base damage -6" is just a constant sticking point. I'm willing to trade a bit of exact balance for something easier for my group to wrap their heads around*.

                            My current thought is "the attacker rolls their total damage pool, the defender rolls dice equal to their soak, and threshold successes become damage," with your weapon's Overwhelming rating being the minimum amount of withering damage it can deal (Ie, if I hit you with a daiklave and you soak the entire thing, you still take 4 damage).

                            Previous Responses

                            Originally posted by Grod_the_giant View Post
                            ... If you applied half your soak to successes on Withering damage rolls, instead of reducing the number of dice before rolling?
                            Originally posted by TheCountAlucard View Post
                            Certain Charms add or reduce damage after soak, so those would need to be adjusted bare minimum.
                            Originally posted by autXautY View Post

                            Assuming this gets rid of overwhelming, high soak becomes incredibly powerful.

                            Things that trigger off of taking no damage get either a boost or a penalty, depending on specifics.

                            The probability curve of damage gets a lot wider, since more dice are being rolled



                            *I tried to get a group with just people I know are mechanically savvy. Social dynamics meant it didn't stay that way for long :/

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                            • Originally posted by Grod_the_giant View Post
                              I'm willing to trade a bit of exact balance for something easier for my group to wrap their heads around*.
                              I’ve had a lot of trouble with it in the past. The only way I kind of figured out how to do it easily without mental fatigue is to do it really procedurally and never try to shortcut it. I was always going “well my base damae is 12 and his soak is 8 so that’s 4 damage, but I got 4 threshold successes so that’s 8.” Or “okay so I rolled 4 successes that makes his soak effectively 4 so I take that away from 12 and get 8.” And other stuff like that. I have to make a conscious effort to say “my base damage is 12, I got 4 threshold successes that’s 16, the subtract soak of 8 and I’m left with 8.”

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                              • Base + Threshold - Soak = Withering Damage [Minimum of Overwhelming] is how we do it, and it is procedurally easy


                                The problem with defending the purity of the English language is that English is about as pure as a cribhouse whore. We don't just borrow words; on occasion, English has pursued other languages down alleyways to beat them unconscious and rifle their pockets for new vocabulary. - James. D. Nicoll

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