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  • Ellis
    started a topic What Breaks If......

    What Breaks If......

    I've had a couple of weird and pretty game-rearranging ideas lately, which I don't think really rate their own thread, so I'm putting them here instead. Please, bring your own as well.
    1. What breaks if Infernals bring in their 2e themes of becoming Primordials, but instead of being Essence-based, they're Attribute-based? Lunars were the other splat defined by being (as opposed to Solars doing), and they were Attribute-based, on the basis that Attributes are what you are but Abilities are what you can do. Besides, the existing Charm trees break down fairly easily if you take each Yozi to cover four Attributes, so Infernals favor two Caste Attributes and two of their own. Most of the Green Sun Flare Nimbus stuff goes in Malfean Strength while the By Pain Reforged stuff goes in Malfean Stamina, as opposed to the Transcendent Desert Creature stuff in Cecilian Stamina. There's definitely a little reshuffling involved, though. Also, Shintai/DBT similarities? I'm just saying.
    2. What breaks if Sidereal Resplendent Destinies are more like Vancian magic (the less cool Vancian magic as opposed to Exalted sorcery, that is). I mean, one of the criticisms of DND magic is that it feels like Batman's utility belt, but a James Bond utility belt is exactly the feel Sidereals are going for with their closed Charmset already. Let them requisition/pray for uses of Charms or Resplendencies, even if they don't have them, and the Maidens in the form of the GM approve or even suggest them. I think it would be very in theme for a Sidereal circle in the middle of planning a battle to get approved for Efficient Secretary Technique and take it as a hint that they're missing something. This idea has been brought to you by the comic in MOEP Sidereals where they say they've been "all been granted Terminal Sanction", which doesn't really make sense otherwise but is in all other respects highly enjoyable.

  • Chausse
    replied
    Originally posted by DrLoveMonkey View Post
    Assuming you could prune enough charms from the tree I think that would be okay. You’re going to flatten out a lot of the power that Solars have in particular, but I don’t think it would break much.
    Yeah I think the real complexity comes when deciding how to handle Charms where the narrative effect comes with a dice trick. I'll see case by case I guess

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  • DrLoveMonkey
    replied
    Assuming you could prune enough charms from the tree I think that would be okay. You’re going to flatten out a lot of the power that Solars have in particular, but I don’t think it would break much.

    Leave a comment:


  • Chausse
    replied
    Originally posted by DrLoveMonkey View Post

    The other issue with that is who cares? Are there any antagonists in the game aside from other Solars who specialize in stealth that can even remotely require those kind of insane awareness rolls? A really awesome sneaky enemy might have 11 dice and double 9s to their sneak, and most just have 7-8.

    It’s the same problem with Sail. A Solar sailor takes like 4 charms and can absolutely roll any opposition, then has 20 charms that don’t really help because they always win anyway.
    Yeah I guess this was my intent behind "Take every Dice tricks Charms and fuse them into one, keep the other fun Charms that allows for real new ways of playing".

    For the moment, my current version is this one :

    Solar mastery

    Essence : 1 (Repurchase at 2 and 3). Abilities : Basically all that makes sense
    Cost : 3m
    You gain Double 9 on the roll. (Permanent) You get one free Full Excellency once per scene.
    Repurchase (Essence 2) : You gain (Essence) non-Charm dices on the roll. (Permanent) You can double 8s once per scene.
    Repurchase (Essence 3) : (Permanent) This Charm is now free of motes

    I believe it to be simple enough and express the power of the Solars in a simple way. My only problem is that that there is no "reroll 1s" or "cascading 10s" that seem rather core to the Solar powers in the existing Charms, but I find them too annoying from an ergonomic point of view.

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  • DrLoveMonkey
    replied
    Originally posted by Chausse View Post

    I'm actually fine with the mechanics sometimes confronting the narrative power, but I think Awareness missed some good ideas by going too far with "dice tricks to stealthing character" thing. Whatever I guess just invent some Charms.
    The other issue with that is who cares? Are there any antagonists in the game aside from other Solars who specialize in stealth that can even remotely require those kind of insane awareness rolls? A really awesome sneaky enemy might have 11 dice and double 9s to their sneak, and most just have 7-8.

    It’s the same problem with Sail. A Solar sailor takes like 4 charms and can absolutely roll any opposition, then has 20 charms that don’t really help because they always win anyway.

    Leave a comment:


  • Chausse
    replied
    Originally posted by Sorcerous Overlord View Post


    "These benefits do not apply to detecting opponents in stealth"

    It's just such a mood whiplash to go from being Daredevil to it not working on stealth because Game Balance. It's completely a conceit of the mechanics. You can hear animals burrowing underground, conversations through stone walls, ants on a branch, and things below human auditory spectrum, but it gives you no bonus at all on hearing a maid sneak up to your door with a knife in hand, something orders of magnitude louder than hearing a mouse underground.

    Don't get me wrong, I LOVE the spirit of the Awareness line and I'm taking them on my character, but there are some real brick walls in that tree.
    I'm actually fine with the mechanics sometimes confronting the narrative power, but I think Awareness missed some good ideas by going too far with "dice tricks to stealthing character" thing. Whatever I guess just invent some Charms.

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  • Sorcerous Overlord
    replied
    Originally posted by DrLoveMonkey View Post

    I read the Keen Hearing and Touch flavour text to mean that it somewhat expands what the ST might be willing to allow a roll for, but mostly it’s the autosuccesses and difficulty manipulation.

    "These benefits do not apply to detecting opponents in stealth"

    It's just such a mood whiplash to go from being Daredevil to it not working on stealth because Game Balance. It's completely a conceit of the mechanics. You can hear animals burrowing underground, conversations through stone walls, ants on a branch, and things below human auditory spectrum, but it gives you no bonus at all on hearing a maid sneak up to your door with a knife in hand, something orders of magnitude louder than hearing a mouse underground.

    Don't get me wrong, I LOVE the spirit of the Awareness line and I'm taking them on my character, but there are some real brick walls in that tree.

    Leave a comment:


  • Chausse
    replied
    Originally posted by DrLoveMonkey View Post

    I read the Keen Hearing and Touch flavour text to mean that it somewhat expands what the ST might be willing to allow a roll for, but mostly it’s the autosuccesses and difficulty manipulation.
    I'm usually open to accept the core ideas of the Keen sense techniques, like counting fast big groups, see at 100 yards, feel things through the earth vibration, etc ... without a roll, when basically someone is not trying to contest.

    Larceny has charms that just straight up say "No": If you don't have magic that boosts your vision its just impossible to notice the slight of hand. I wish Stealth and Awareness had more of that.
    Thank you that was exactly the kind of thing I was talking about.

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  • DrLoveMonkey
    replied
    Originally posted by Sorcerous Overlord View Post
    There's an Awareness charm that increases your hearing so well that you can hear ants walking outside of your house… but its the charm after that that gives you bonus dice to hear a character moving in stealth. Ants are louder than thieves I guess.
    I read the Keen Hearing and Touch flavour text to mean that it somewhat expands what the ST might be willing to allow a roll for, but mostly it’s the autosuccesses and difficulty manipulation.

    Leave a comment:


  • Sorcerous Overlord
    replied
    There's an Awareness charm that increases your hearing so well that you can hear ants walking outside of your house… but its the charm after that that gives you bonus dice to hear a character moving in stealth. Ants are louder than thieves I guess.

    Larceny has charms that just straight up say "No": If you don't have magic that boosts your vision its just impossible to notice the slight of hand. I wish Stealth and Awareness had more of that.

    Leave a comment:


  • Chausse
    replied
    Originally posted by DrLoveMonkey View Post

    I find DB Awareness and Lunar Perception be better in that regard... on the other hand you’re not sneaking up on an awareness Solar I guess?
    Yeah but at that point just make a Charm that says "You see people". I mean, I get the idea, they want to be some sort of contest between the Solar awareness and the Solar stealthy guy in the Circle when they disagree or whatnot, but here having like 5 Charms that circumstantials bonuses and dice tricks to see hidden characters ... What bothers me is meanwhile we don't get more cool Charms like the one that allows you to make an olfactive library, or a Charm that allows you to hear your interlocutor's thoughts because your hearing is so perfect (maybe he is in Socialize though), or one that allows you to see in perpendicular directions because you master the reflection of the light on thin air (ok maybe this one is useless I don't know), etc ... like real cool effects that says something about the narration going on in the game.

    Anyway enough ranting I think I got some good ideas thanks to this discussion. I think the safest play for the moment is to not touch combat abilities, and I'll see after a little practice in other abilities if I can apply my ideas to the fighting mechanics. I think for the moment they have too many things going on.

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  • DrLoveMonkey
    replied
    Originally posted by Chausse View Post

    Yep, that's definitely annoying.

    Also, oh my god, I just happened to reread a little of Awareness, and are you sure guys we got enough Charms about detecting hidden characters ? I believe we clearly don't have enough of them Charms detecting hidden characters. Maybe we should do more Charms about detecting hidden characters.
    I find DB Awareness and Lunar Perception be better in that regard... on the other hand you’re not sneaking up on an awareness Solar I guess?

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  • Chausse
    replied
    Originally posted by DrLoveMonkey View Post

    You could just counter the doubles, make the enemy lose double 10s for example.

    It’s not exactly going to be one-to-one anyway. Bulwark Stance reduces damage with its dice trick rather than make you harder to hit, so it’s going to be pretty generalized no matter what.
    Yep, that's definitely annoying.

    Also, oh my god, I just happened to reread a little of Awareness, and are you sure guys we got enough Charms about detecting hidden characters ? I believe we clearly don't have enough of them Charms detecting hidden characters. Maybe we should do more Charms about detecting hidden characters.

    Leave a comment:


  • DrLoveMonkey
    replied
    Originally posted by Chausse View Post
    I don't see simple tricks to augment Defense that are statistically equivalent to Double 9s for the defender to use. Static Defense increase ?
    You could just counter the doubles, make the enemy lose double 10s for example.

    It’s not exactly going to be one-to-one anyway. Bulwark Stance reduces damage with its dice trick rather than make you harder to hit, so it’s going to be pretty generalized no matter what.
    Last edited by DrLoveMonkey; 02-03-2020, 10:13 AM.

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  • Chausse
    replied
    I don't see simple tricks to augment Defense that are statistically equivalent to Double 9s for the defender to use. Static Defense increase ?

    Leave a comment:

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