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I am mad. (The CIVIL thread for voicing displeasure)

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  • #46
    Originally posted by Irked View Post
    I am also on the "disappointed" side of the spectrum, though interested to see what the final text looks like. Consider that Shards of the Exalted Dream released in July 2012, i.e., 46 months ago. All of First Edition's books came out between July 2001 to November 2005, i.e., 53 months; even if we extend through the publication of the Ex2 core, that only increases to 57 months. Given that period of time, the rules clarity in November was - well, underwhelming.
    Something I feel is always worth noting when this comes up: we might be between a rock and a hard place here.

    A lot of the problems with 1e and 2e sprang from the fact that White Wolf could and did enforce hard deadlines. The reasons Lunars ended up not being very good twice in a row is because both times the book ran up against a deadline after hitting development trouble and WW simply went "tough, we made a commitment, honor it." Lunars is, of course, the ur-example of this, but a lot of the shoddy product we got is because there simply wasn't time to develop it properly. I'm pretty sure a lot of the 2e copypasta is because of tight deadlines.

    I loved the heady days of the early aughts when new Exalted books rolled off the line sometimes as often as every month, with a fatsplat sometimes twice a year. But, well... hitting a production schedule that aggressive might be literally impossible if we want it done right. Even if we assume that they can develop future fatsplats in one-third the amount of time it took them to make the Core, that's only one of them a year. And then there's whatever ancillary sourcebooks they might want to make. Bottom line, we might not see, say, a Getimians or Infernals book until 2022/2023.

    This might simply be an iron law that can't be got around if we expect the product to be quality. It isn't the fault of anyone. It might just take that long to make good stuff without a hard deadline looming.

    Having said that...

    The biggest, most glaring weakness of E3 is organizational and linguistic. The various engines all work. That's great! It puts them way ahead of 2e! But let me blunt: the "natural language" experiment with Charm writing is, in my opinion, an abject failure. The ruleset is all over the place in terms of where vital bits of it are located and and not well cross-referenced. In a system with this many moving parts, when talking about mechanics we need precise, mechanistic language and we need tightly-bound organization.

    The book needed a period of outside vetting followed by a second editing pass, and by the time the backer pdf dropped there wasn't time for that. That needs to be an integral part of future development. If the devs and writers can't notice "hey, these Charms reference rules that don't exist anymore and here's three pages of ambiguously worded Charms and this Keyword is badly explained" because they're too close to the work (which isn't their fault, because that's a thing that happens; you can't stop it) then the development process can and must be more open.

    Lastly, allow me to add my voice to those calling for a firm commitment to errata going forward.


    "SEX NOVA is the kind of person who, after being chosen as the divine champion of the god of heroes, decided to call himself SEX NOVA."

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    • #47
      Originally posted by RichT View Post

      I'll talk to the Devs. First thing, though, check out the updated Final PDF when it updates in your library on DTRPG tomorrow afternoon and see if they haven't clarified any of those points you listed. Thanks!
      Awesome, thanks! Just knowing that things like this are being talked about makes me feel immensely better.

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      • #48
        I may or may not buy future Exalted products - Ex3 core has some excellent bits, but I don't want to support the attitudes that went into making it.

        With that said, I don't see good things coming from arguing any further. I'll continue reading this thread, but I won't post in it again.



        The mechanics of Exalted 3rd edition are an excellent rough draft. The backer PDF is where I would have expected the text to be before it was given to an editor, who should then have sent it back with mountains of red ink. And I don't mean spelling and grammar - I mean "great first version, now cut the charm chapter in half."

        I'm a game developer - I understand somewhat the complexities involved, especially with managing mutually exclusive feedback from different parties. But the complete lack of engagement with opposing ideas - the constant arguing with strawmen rather than even a basic understanding of opposing views - is mind boggling.



        It makes me literally sick to my stomach when I read the sheer hostility and arrogance Holden displays. I moderate comments on my reasonably active blog, and manage my own small community, so I say this in my hat as community manager - the way he interacts is completely toxic. I avoid threads he's posting in.

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        • #49
          Originally posted by Iron Phoenix View Post
          [USER="43"]Yes, I've been allowing that as well. Maybe it makes sense and is cinematic for the Solar to be so skilled that their attacks can parry that of 10, 20, 30 opponents and strike true themselves. We see this in wuxia films all the time. How about 100 combatants (size 3)? How about 500 (size 4)? How about 1000 (size 5)? Also, since Clash attacks do a bonus 3 Initiative damage, that makes them incredibly strong against battle groups where Initiative damage is applied directly to magnitude tracks, which are effectively health levels. We also have clarification on page 416 - "Certain Charms like Joint-Wounding Attack don’t make sense when applied to a battle group. Instead of having a single dagger knock the eye out of ten thousand people, refer to the Orichalcum Rule on page 182." A single combatant being able to Clash and negate the attack of 10,000 soldiers similarly doesn't make sense, but what's the developer intent here?
          If it were impossible to defend against a battle group's attacks then it would be impossible to defend against their attacks. Given that there are no rules against defending against them with parry, why would there be a rule against defending against them with a more aggressive form of parrying? Also, Glorious Solar Sabre directly references making clashes against battle groups, so if you want proof rather than evidence then it's there.


          My homebrew: Abyssals, Infernals, Dragon Kings, martial arts.

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          • #50
            It would be interesting to see how someone who's not been on this four year long rollercoaster looks at the 3e core book. That might tell us relevant things.

            In my opinion, the project had obvious issues, many of which had sound explanations. There are some things I'm disappointed in, but not nearly as many as I could have been. I am personally of the opinion that Onyx Path has communicated sufficiently about the project. In all of this, Rich has had a hard burden to carry on a narrow road, and I feel he's carried it better than might be expected. No matter if I agree with his choices or not, I always feel like there is integrity behind them.


            Dex Davican wrote: I can say without exaggeration or dishonesty that I am the most creative man ever to have lived

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            • #51
              Originally posted by Murcushio View Post
              Something I feel is always worth noting when this comes up: we might be between a rock and a hard place here.
              I agree with basically everything in this post. You're absolutely right that, insofar as it can be argued that there's some sort of meaningful time-to-quality tradeoff, it's a little bit silly to say, "Ah, for the speed of 1e, but the quality of something else!"

              But, um. If that's a reliable law - if there really is a meaningful time-to-quality tradeoff on this kind of scale - it appears that no one believed that was true three years ago, y'know?

              I'm inclined to lean more towards your latter point: that the development process has fundamental organizational issues, which are reflected both in some of the editing timeline - I'm still vaguely appalled that folks are hand-crafting pagerefs in 2016 - and in the wording of the mechanics. For all the words against open development, the backer PDF makes a pretty compelling argument for more eyes on the product earlier in the process.
              Last edited by Irked; 04-19-2016, 06:57 PM.


              Homebrew: Lunar Charms for 3e

              Solar Charm Rewrite (Complete) (Now with Charm cards!)

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              • #52
                Originally posted by Weimann View Post
                It would be interesting to see how someone who's not been on this four year long rollercoaster looks at the 3e core book. That might tell us relevant things.

                In my opinion, the project had obvious issues, many of which had sound explanations. There are some things I'm disappointed in, but not nearly as many as I could have been. I am personally of the opinion that Onyx Path has communicated sufficiently about the project. In all of this, Rich has had a hard burden to carry on a narrow road, and I feel he's carried it better than might be expected. No matter if I agree with his choices or not, I always feel like there is integrity behind them.
                Ok, sorry, I said I wouldn't post here again... but I've done this. I showed it to some of my friends who do not play Exalted but do enjoy other RPGs to varying extents. My presentation was "Hey, this game is pretty cool, I know it looks kind of long, but will you take a look?" I was not negative - I was excited to play!

                One of them said she might play it if I pointed out just the parts she needed to read. The others laughed in my face, because 650 pages is way too much, and "you don't need to read most of it" isn't a compelling argument.

                So sadly, I don't know what sort of reactions people reading it might have, because I can't get anyone who didn't already like 2e to even look at 3e.

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                • #53
                  Originally posted by Lanaya View Post

                  If it were impossible to defend against a battle group's attacks then it would be impossible to defend against their attacks. Given that there are no rules against defending against them with parry, why would there be a rule against defending against them with a more aggressive form of parrying? Also, Glorious Solar Sabre directly references making clashes against battle groups, so if you want proof rather than evidence then it's there.
                  Perfect. I didn't recall that text in Glorious Solar Saber, but you're right, it's there. I appreciate you pointing it out.

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                  • #54
                    Originally posted by Irked View Post
                    But, um. If that's a reliable law - if there really is a meaningful time-to-quality tradeoff on this kind of scale - it appears that no one believed that was true three years ago, y'know?
                    All I can say to that is I've noticed a trend as game development has gone more "indie" over the past six or seven years is that this isn't unique to Exalted. You cut experienced game developers free from tight corporate and editorial control and they go "Finally, we can make the product we've always dreamed of!"

                    Sixteen months later, amidst the shattered ruin of a kickstarter and staring blearily at a product that isn't even feature-complete, they come to the realization that those tight corporate chains also offered a lot of stability, and that their editors were instrumental in breaking development roadblocks, and that thinking they could produce artisanal quality product that came out on corporate timelines was a fools errand.

                    I'm inclined to lean more towards your latter point: that the development process has fundamental organizational issues, which are reflected both in some of the editing timeline - I'm still vaguely appalled that folks are hand-crafting pagerefs in 2016 - and in the wording of the mechanics. For all the words against open development, the backer PDF makes a pretty compelling argument for more eyes on the product earlier in the process.
                    It's the editing and layout timeline that really worries me. The actual text itself has been substantially complete since, in my understanding, late 2014. That's pretty okay; it means they designed, playtested, and finalized an entire new mechanical system from the ground up in about 18 months. That's about right; assuming they can do add-ons (which is what the other fatsplats are) in a third of the time, because the base engine is set in stone and needs to be accommodated, thus providing structure, that's pretty okay. Six months sounds good...

                    ... until your realize it was in layout and art for fifteen months. Even if you cut THAT by a third, you're now at eleven months. In other words, a full year. One fatsplat per year. Less, if we want other supplements as well, unless they bring in more writers.

                    Again, that might not be anyone's fault. This might just be the world we live in. And I might be overly pessimistic; the fatsplats are crunch-heavy, but sourcebooks are often setting books, and Compass-equivalents might involve just letting Vance and Minton's fertile brains go nuts for like six weeks, boom, done.


                    "SEX NOVA is the kind of person who, after being chosen as the divine champion of the god of heroes, decided to call himself SEX NOVA."

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                    • #55
                      Originally posted by Iron Phoenix View Post
                      Yes, I've been allowing that as well. Maybe it makes sense and is cinematic for the Solar to be so skilled that their attacks can parry that of 10, 20, 30 opponents and strike true themselves. We see this in wuxia films all the time. How about 100 combatants (size 3)? How about 500 (size 4)? How about 1000 (size 5)? Also, since Clash attacks do a bonus 3 Initiative damage, that makes them incredibly strong against battle groups where Initiative damage is applied directly to magnitude tracks, which are effectively health levels. We also have clarification on page 416 - "Certain Charms like Joint-Wounding Attack don’t make sense when applied to a battle group. Instead of having a single dagger knock the eye out of ten thousand people, refer to the Orichalcum Rule on page 182." A single combatant being able to Clash and negate the attack of 10,000 soldiers similarly doesn't make sense, but what's the developer intent here?
                      Going solely by raw, you get to clash them all, whether or not it makes sense. You are exalted afterall.

                      Yes, actually, it is. You're paying 3 motes for 1 success and to reroll 16% of your failures. As you acknowledge in your next statement, 2 dice averages to 1 success, and 2 dice from Excellency costs 2 motes. So when you cost out the Charm, you're actually paying 1 mote to reroll all 1s. If this only gets you 1 die, then it's on par with Excellency, but anything above 1 die is straight superior to Excellency. When you have characters that may be rolling 5 Ability + 5 Attribute + 1 Specialty + 5 Accuracy + 8 Excellency = 24 dice, you're outpacing Charms like Wise Arrow.
                      "16% of your failures" is 10% of your dice.
                      On 24 dice, you get on average 6/10ths failed dice (14.4), 1/6th of which are 1s (2.4). Which is 10%.
                      And I never said it wasn't as good as an excellency, just not as mind-bogglingly awesome as people often assume.

                      So let's say I'm Appearance 5 against Appearance 2 and get 3 non-Charm dice. My dice pool is 5 Ability + 5 Attribute + 1 Specialty + 10 Excellency + 3 non-Charm dice = 24 dice = 12 expected successes. If I use the Charm, now my dice pool is 5 Ability + 5 Attribute + 1 Specialty + 4 Excellency + 3 guaranteed successes = 15 dice + 3 successes = 10.5 expected successes. See the problem?
                      Averages are misleading. Look at probabilities of each success level. You get a smaller possibility of more numerous successes, but a higher overall likelitude of succeeding greatly. You trade about 2 successes for a 25% increased chance at getting 10 successes.



                      Highest probability withough charm: 12% for 12 successes
                      Highest probability with charm: 15% for 10 successes
                      This charm is literally statistical magic.

                      So let's say a player at Table A can come up with 5 scenarios per session that should yield Craft experience. Maybe a player at Table B is more creative and can come up with 15 scenarios per session that should yield Craft experience. That's a huge difference in power level across tables!
                      This has nothing to do with "power levels". Craft exp is pacing, not power. you aren't "more powerful" for having more cxp. You are afforded more possibilities to craft, sure, but in real life it comes out that if you want to craft more, you simply craft more. Craft is, quite literally, not a competition (unlike perception vs. stealth or dodge vs athletics).
                      Some rough guidelines of "these are the values that we would expect the typical Craft character to earn in a standard session" would help Storytellers immensely.
                      How? I'm not being facetious, I actually don't get why this is a problem. Is the player complaining, or is the ST having trouble managing the amount of artifacts the player is making (or not making)? Honest question.
                      Craft opens up so many cool possibilities, but if they wanted to play an Excel spreadsheet they'd be playing EVE Online.
                      As a player of eve-online, I much prefer Craft to Eve's daytrading.
                      That's one possible interpretation. Do they know you're there? Do they get to delay to try to Clash you during your surprise attack? Can they use Full Defense? Can they warn their allies who are below you in the Initiative order so that you don't get an Ambush attack? There's a lot of room for error here.
                      It's not "one possible interpretation, it's literally rules as written. The paragraphs on ambushes are unambiguous: if you are hiding and attacking someone with lower initiative than yours on the first turn, then it's an ambush. Else, provided that you are hidden, it's a surprise attack. They're in combat, they get to do normal combat things at the ST's discretion. If the ST rolls with full transparency, they get to clash and Full Defence, as the "being hidden" part is already factored into the combat system via -2 defense.


                      Bearer of the legacy of Trauma Bear
                      Need a dice-roller? Check out Dicemat.

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                      • #56
                        Originally posted by Murcushio View Post
                        Again, that might not be anyone's fault. This might just be the world we live in. And I might be overly pessimistic; the fatsplats are crunch-heavy, but sourcebooks are often setting books, and Compass-equivalents might involve just letting Vance and Minton's fertile brains go nuts for like six weeks, boom, done.
                        Even for setting material, there's a good bit of research time involved. I had to budget a good chunk of my schedule for the Realm book toward reading up on military history and economics, subjects in which I am no expert.


                        Developer for Exalted.

                        Want to write for Exalted? Look at the freelancer submission guidelines.

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                        • #57
                          Originally posted by Fata-Ku View Post
                          Averages are misleading. Look at probabilities of each success level. You get a smaller possibility of more numerous successes, but a higher overall likelitude of succeeding greatly. You trade about 2 successes for a 25% increased chance at getting 10 successes.



                          Highest probability withough charm: 12% for 12 successes
                          Highest probability with charm: 15% for 10 successes
                          This charm is literally statistical magic.
                          But "What's the highest probability of rolling any single number of successes?" is as close to valueless of a number as I can think of. No one cares how likely it is to roll precisely ten successes (or precisely any number of successes you could name); people care how likely it is you'll roll at least ten successes. And in that case, the 28 dice clearly dominate; in fact, glancing at your (helpful!) statistical table, it appears that, for any number of successes greater than 5, your odds are better with the big pool than with the guaranteed successes.


                          Homebrew: Lunar Charms for 3e

                          Solar Charm Rewrite (Complete) (Now with Charm cards!)

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                          • #58
                            Originally posted by Murcushio View Post

                            All I can say to that is I've noticed a trend as game development has gone more "indie" over the past six or seven years is that this isn't unique to Exalted. You cut experienced game developers free from tight corporate and editorial control and they go "Finally, we can make the product we've always dreamed of!"

                            Sixteen months later, amidst the shattered ruin of a kickstarter and staring blearily at a product that isn't even feature-complete, they come to the realization that those tight corporate chains also offered a lot of stability, and that their editors were instrumental in breaking development roadblocks, and that thinking they could produce artisanal quality product that came out on corporate timelines was a fools errand.
                            Yeah, this is descriptive of basically all indie game development, not just Exalted or pen-and-paper RPGs, but videogames as well.
                            Speaking from experience u_u


                            Bearer of the legacy of Trauma Bear
                            Need a dice-roller? Check out Dicemat.

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                            • #59
                              Originally posted by Eric Minton View Post
                              Even for setting material, there's a good bit of research time involved. I had to budget a good chunk of my schedule for the Realm book toward reading up on military history and economics, subjects in which I am no expert.
                              I want to say a longstanding dedication to some stuff like research into history, anthropology, and sociology are huge, huge, huge reasons that I love the Exalted line. I'm a baby anthropology nerd and a lot of the stuff in the setting makes that part of my heart sing.


                              Pronounced "Monkey Pie"

                              Find my actual play content here!

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                              • #60
                                Originally posted by Monkipi View Post
                                I want to say a longstanding dedication to some stuff like research into history, anthropology, and sociology are huge, huge, huge reasons that I love the Exalted line. I'm a baby anthropology nerd and a lot of the stuff in the setting makes that part of my heart sing.

                                This is why I stick around the forum and sometimes create clickbait history/anthropology threads.

                                Last edited by wonderandawe; 04-19-2016, 07:56 PM.


                                I write things.

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