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A Not-Quite-Newb's Read-through of Ex3

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  • Originally posted by Xerxes View Post
    • The need for complementary intimacies in order to do most actions is a really nice system, but I still feel like having only a few intimacies is the best way to go - a couple of "defensive" ones (generally principles) and none that can be taken advantage of.
    Not really, in part because the more intimacies you have the more you can use to defend yourself with during Decision Points (since you can't use one more than once per DP), and because "none that can be taken advantage of" is neither useful nor really feasible -- e.g. Fists of Iron isn't going to get a bonus from "I will always carefully consider my alternatives before being convinced of anything", and it's just as easy to use for something like Manipulation by stunting how the manipulator is "helping" you consider your options. And things like "I'll never do what I'm told" are just a reverse-psychology stunt away.


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    • Plus no intimacies means they can just stick in any they like with an instil action and work from there.

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      • Originally posted by Xerxes View Post
        No similar "must be trying to hide things" condition for Guile? Why not? This implies that characters are usually weak-willed and susceptible, but always guarded in their actions. That is a no odd mix.
        I think your assumption here is not correct. If your player wants to use Resolve to resist influence, it means the character feels skeptical. On the other hand, Guile is how hard you are to read. Even if you are telling the truth, if you are a skilled manipulator, people just cannot tell. Actually they will fail their read intentions roll and they will assume that you are telling the truth anyway, so the result is the same.

        Hang on, Inspire actions don't automatically create or strengthen intimacies? That feels really weird. I might expect the inspiration to fizzle out over time, but not leaving a mark at all...
        It is up to ST.
        Originally posted by Ex3 p. 217
        An impassioned character might form a new passion, or act upon an existing Intimacy that aligns with the emotion evoked.
        I've just realised - what social actions are influence rolls? It's not defined in the above section. I assume, given the wording, that all actions apart from Read Intentions is. But that's only made clear because Read Intentions is explicitly called out as not being one, rather than actions which are influence rolls being labelled as such.
        Natural language is being natural ...

        Social interaction is a lovely system, one which counterbalances a tendency I've noticed for players to treat social as a dumpstat and then talk their way out of situations based on their own ability, rather than that of their characters'. This puts a goodly amount of crunch on the table to counterbalance that. As stated, I think the use of intimacies as defence needs to be underlined for players that only give the rules a casual glance, but apart from that it really seems to work.
        Good selection of Intimacies is also very important for other game mechanics, namely crafting XP and Zenith solar XP gains.

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        • He's not got to crafting yet.

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          • Originally posted by Fata-Ku View Post
            Not really, in part because the more intimacies you have the more you can use to defend yourself with during Decision Points (since you can't use one more than once per DP), and because "none that can be taken advantage of" is neither useful nor really feasible -- e.g. Fists of Iron isn't going to get a bonus from "I will always carefully consider my alternatives before being convinced of anything", and it's just as easy to use for something like Manipulation by stunting how the manipulator is "helping" you consider your options. And things like "I'll never do what I'm told" are just a reverse-psychology stunt away.
            You dont even really need a stunt or to twist the wording for those to bite you in the ass. If your circle mate is being attacked by overwhelming numbers of bad guys and the silver tongued wolf in sheeps clothing says "Now now, it's dangerous to just rush in there, you might die too...why don't we 'hang back and consider our options very carefully'. We don't do anything hasty now."

            Or if you have an intimacy of "I never do what I'm told" the next time your circlemate asks you to do something important, the clever social enemy just has to imply that your her dog on a short leash, and should procrastinate just to show her that she doesn't get to tell you what to do.

            You can't really have just defensive intimacies. that's not to say that you shouldn't carefully pick your intimacies, but it's more about choosing your strengths and weaknesses. A principle of "justice must always be served" means that it'll be way harder for people to convince you to just let it go and let the evil emperor escape, but it'll also be easier to convince you to stay your hand when maybe mercy is called for. Unless, of course, you have another intimacy about mercy.

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            • I'll reply in full to some specific comments when I can use the quote function without squinting, but to clarify the point on intimacies: I realise, having read the whole section, that intimacies are useful for social defence. But the text doesn't present them like that until about three-quarters of the way through. The rest of the section, including the overview & introduction, presents intimacies as things which people use to screw you over, not things to defend against being screwed over. That's why I reacted the way I did to the text; apart from the defending rules, the book does not encourage the use of intimacies to counter influence, or even imply that this is how it's done. At least on my reading.


              A Not-Quite-Newb's Read-Through of Ex3 - my thoughts, notes and trials and tribulations with the Exalted 3rd edition rules.
              Ex3 Reference Materials - currently includes an ST screen, common actions sheet, weapons reference sheet, character creation summary and mortal QCs reference sheet.

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              • It IS a bit odd that they waited so long to do that. You'd think they could like, put one sentence near the front that's simply "Social Influence often revolves around the use of Intimacies, either to attempt to influence someone, or to protect you from external influence"


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                • For reference, here's the Holden quote clarifying that you don't gain multiple initiative from hitting battle groups.


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                  • Originally posted by Elfive View Post
                    He's not got to crafting yet.
                    I see a page bloat of rage in the future ...

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                    • If it happens, I'll just have to read quick enough to move on to the next section...


                      A Not-Quite-Newb's Read-Through of Ex3 - my thoughts, notes and trials and tribulations with the Exalted 3rd edition rules.
                      Ex3 Reference Materials - currently includes an ST screen, common actions sheet, weapons reference sheet, character creation summary and mortal QCs reference sheet.

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                      • You know, he might not have any issue with it at all. Xerxes is reading for clarity, and few people struggle with "what does craft mean" but rather "I don't want it to work like that" which is valid and fine but not what Xerxes is reading for. At least, based on most of the previous posts.


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                        • Crime & Investigation

                          No introduction? Oh.

                          Larceny
                          • NPC shortcuts. I like those.
                          • No general bonus for imitating a specific person? Then no reason to do it unless you're trying to fool a specific person, which you get penalised on anyway. Feels strange.
                          • No discussion of larceny that isn't specifically linked to a skill? That feels strange, particularly given that larceny is specifically called out as a skill to use to interact with the criminal underworld, in the way that Streetwise is in OWoD. Stephen brought up a great point in the 25/26 Abilities Thread that Larceny is a "role ability", not a "skill ability", but the mechanics presented in this section don't reflect that at all. As a new reader to Exalted, it's difficult to grok which are intended to be role abilities and which aren't.
                          Investigation
                          • Contradictory intimacies box in completely the wrong pace. I get that it's difficult to cram lots of sidebars and art and words into every page, but this is getting tiresome now.
                          • Two sets of rolls to cover a whole ability. They are kind of multi-use, but even so it feels like Investigation get short shrift here.
                          • One success for EVERYTHING hidden? Not one clue per success? That's getting a houserule, straight out of the gate.
                          • I'm... slightly uneasy about the ST giving away clues wholesale, rather than letting players put them together entirely by themselves. It feels a bit like spoonfeeding, but that might just be me.
                          A much shorter section than I was expecting. Larceny is a fairly solid set of "how to be a thief" mechanics, even if it doesn't connect to what the ability is pitched as earlier in the book. Investigation, on the other hand, is instructions for the ST to roll out the red carpet and not require players to think, or even roll particularly well.

                          Onward to Projects!
                          Last edited by Xerxes; 05-04-2016, 03:15 AM.


                          A Not-Quite-Newb's Read-Through of Ex3 - my thoughts, notes and trials and tribulations with the Exalted 3rd edition rules.
                          Ex3 Reference Materials - currently includes an ST screen, common actions sheet, weapons reference sheet, character creation summary and mortal QCs reference sheet.

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                          • "Role abilities" is a descriptive term I made up off the top of my head over a year after my input on the book was done (Jesus Christ, more than a year?). It's not really something specific skills as written are supposed to adhere to.

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                            • Originally posted by Stephen Lea Sheppard View Post
                              "Role abilities" is a descriptive term I made up off the top of my head over a year after my input on the book was done (Jesus Christ, more than a year?). It's not really something specific skills as written are supposed to adhere to.
                              Fair enough. But it fits so nicely with certain skills!

                              In fact, a from-the-hip thought (bearing in mind I haven't read the action descriptions on things like Sail yet), the sections on Investigation and Larceny shorter because they're abilities that emulate a role rather than a skill. Does this mean that role abilities are short because they're broad enough in applicability that they can be more loosely applied to tasks, without much clarification? Probably not, but I thought I'd take a stab.


                              A Not-Quite-Newb's Read-Through of Ex3 - my thoughts, notes and trials and tribulations with the Exalted 3rd edition rules.
                              Ex3 Reference Materials - currently includes an ST screen, common actions sheet, weapons reference sheet, character creation summary and mortal QCs reference sheet.

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                              • Originally posted by Xerxes View Post
                                Investigation, on the other hand, is instructions for the ST to roll out the red carpet and not require players to think, or even roll particularly well.
                                This is Exalted. A Solar Investigator will solve petty crimes in record time. There are ways to challenge your Investigation players, but if you expect "find out who broke into the office to steal the precious paperwork and how they did it" or "suss out who the murderer was in a simple street assassination between local gangs" to be where the challenge is found, you're gonna have problems.

                                As for the means I mention, well you'll learn more about them as you get familiar with the game's miriad charms, and the other Exalted and assorted supernatural critters. It's all well and good to learn who the murderer was in a heart beat, but it's no use if that murderer was actually, say, a Sidereal who's now probably very far away and a completely different person.

                                Also you're not "giving away clues" as in telling them the solution to the mystery. You just have to build mysteries that require more than one scene of inspecting one crime scene or interrogating one perp to solve is all.
                                Last edited by HerrTenko; 05-04-2016, 06:43 AM.


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